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Systemd 199 Has Its Own D-Bus Client Library

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  • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    It spits in the face of package modularity. There is a very good reason why so many big projects have modularized over the last few years... But noooo, LP thinks his way is better... We'll see how long it lasts. For him it isnt about better projects its about control.
    Let me give you a technical answer: you can put udev in a different package than systemd.

    I know because, well, Lennart said this. As well as a Mageia packager. Oh, and a Debian packager. Oh, an Ubuntu packager said the same. Oh, an openSUSE packager as well. Damn those (in your words) idiots for doing what you say is not possible!

    Btw, Lennart also said more in that eudev "presentation" during FOSDEM. Would be nice if you would watch that and at least try to learn something. Various inaccuracies like this made by Gentoo "developers" were addressed/educated. :P

    Comment


    • Originally posted by bkor View Post
      Let me give you a technical answer: you can put udev in a different package than systemd.

      I know because, well, Lennart said this. As well as a Mageia packager. Oh, and a Debian packager. Oh, an Ubuntu packager said the same. Oh, an openSUSE packager as well. Damn those (in your words) idiots for doing what you say is not possible!

      Btw, Lennart also said more in that eudev "presentation" during FOSDEM. Would be nice if you would watch that and at least try to learn something. Various inaccuracies like this made by Gentoo "developers" were addressed/educated. :P
      You didnt answer my question... Why should I do it? It's the upstream packagers job to keep his packages distro agnostic. Gentoo has a goal of keeping there packages as close to upstream as possible.

      Just because the distro package -can- do upstreams work for them does -not- mean they should.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
        You didnt answer my question... Why should I do it? It's the upstream packagers job to keep his packages distro agnostic. Gentoo has a goal of keeping there packages as close to upstream as possible.

        Just because the distro package -can- do upstreams work for them does -not- mean they should.
        You change topics again. Your response to me didn't include any question. So what the hell are you on about now? Modularity? Jeez, look at the systemd. There are loads of different components. It is not one big daemon, but a collection of modular parts. Things which can be enabled and disabled with configure flags.

        Now regarding eudev: Those packagers said it made no sense that udev and systemd were merged. This seems to be the same thing as you are saying. What the eudev did was to make a copy of all the code shared between udev and systemd and then remove the systemd only code. This is not logical at all. Aside from this they removed various code that was unneeded, to later add it back again as they eventually discovered they introduced bugs and well, the code was needed.

        Basing your opinions on eudev developers is really not smart. Also calling for modularity but not knowing how modular systemd is, while at the same time suggesting that duplicating code across packages is a good thing: Jeez!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
          Because people like you couldnt see past there own nose and understand that not everyone will be using systemd. That udev in fact has existed before sytstemd and there are in fact configurations that depend on udev that dont need systemd.
          Well the thing is that it was the udev developers who merged udev to systemd. Kay Sievers (~70%) and Gregh K-H have together done around 85% of systemd developemet over the past nine years; both of whom thought that merging the project was appropriate among others. Merging udev to systemd made the developement of udev easier as sharing code and infrastucture with systemd was made possible. Now the makefiles for big and modular projects like systemd get kinda complicated and supporting niche cases like compiling systemd without udev is not something you want to add to that; even more so when there's nothing that would be easier to patch in downstream than just the makefile.

          Originally posted by duby229 View Post
          It's the upstream packagers job to keep his packages distro agnostic.
          I think that's up to the upstream to decide... They are under no obligation to support every niche setup you throw at them.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TAXI View Post
            For a long time I'm wondering what's wrong with my setup. Google didn't help.
            This is with a emu10k1 card (SB Live! 5.1 Dell OEM [SB0228]).

            I'm happy for any help with this.
            Interesting. What OS and version are you using? Which version of the kernel and PulseAudio? Did you change any PulseAudio defaults? What are your hardware specifications?

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Well, thats the great thing about linux. I can choose a distro that removes me from the retarded decisions that other people make and try to enforce. Yes it is true that LP has made it difficult to not run systemd (with promises to make it even more difficult in the near future), but I'm still managing thanks to the awesome work being done by gentoo devs. As long as this remains an OSS community I think gentoo will manage to keep systemd optional.
            I take it that you have never used systemd yourself? Because it works like a dream. Thanks to the awesome work being done by other Gentoo devs, systemd on Gentoo makes the whole setup and managing process much easier. Everything related to system and daemon startup is managed from a single, coherent interface, using unified and easy to understand unit files. And it allows combining all the different functionality in new and exciting ways without any effort. Heck, I would not have even bothered to install a login manager, if a newer version of D-Bus was available in Portage that has a certain bug fixed that prevents systemd user sessions from starting correctly. That's because systemd makes it all much simpler and easier.

            What I don't like is the negative attitude to it without any real justification. Sure, OpenRC works, as it worked before. Sure, it's an amazing tool to use on BSDs. But there is no reason to hate systemd for that. Or Poettering, even more so. Or making it harder for users who do want to take advantage of it to use systemd - which I have heard from some Gentoo developers, when I mentioned systemd, they said that they just don't want to support anything to do with it, citing the long-term plans of upstream that they don't like and ignoring the actual technical merits of the software...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
              So let me get this straight.... When you can't win an argument you just start making shit up? Really? I bet that rarely works out well for you.
              There is no winning an argument here, I've already won the argument. All you and Frign have on your side is "Well its different. Its not the way we've done it in the past, therefore it sucks." And when I just asked you whether or not you'd use it after time proved that it was perfectly good and usable, you replied that you were thankful that Gentoo gave you the freedom to still not use it. Proving that your argument against systemd is not based on a matter of merit or immaturity in the project, your problem with the project is religious and ideological.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teho View Post
                Well the thing is that it was the udev developers who merged udev to systemd. Kay Sievers (~70%) and Gregh K-H have together done around 85% of systemd developemet over the past nine years; both of whom thought that merging the project was appropriate among others. Merging udev to systemd made the developement of udev easier as sharing code and infrastucture with systemd was made possible. Now the makefiles for big and modular projects like systemd get kinda complicated and supporting niche cases like compiling systemd without udev is not something you want to add to that; even more so when there's nothing that would be easier to patch in downstream than just the makefile.

                I think that's up to the upstream to decide... They are under no obligation to support every niche setup you throw at them.
                Oh, dammit, I wanted to wait a while before telling the dude that his anger towards Lennart regarding udev is utterly stupid as Lennart is not the udev maintainer. I've been saying for a while now to watch the eudev talk, because it seems all arguments he had are the same ones that the eudev people "raised".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bkor View Post
                  You change topics again. Your response to me didn't include any question. So what the hell are you on about now? Modularity? Jeez, look at the systemd. There are loads of different components. It is not one big daemon, but a collection of modular parts. Things which can be enabled and disabled with configure flags.

                  Now regarding eudev: Those packagers said it made no sense that udev and systemd were merged. This seems to be the same thing as you are saying. What the eudev did was to make a copy of all the code shared between udev and systemd and then remove the systemd only code. This is not logical at all. Aside from this they removed various code that was unneeded, to later add it back again as they eventually discovered they introduced bugs and well, the code was needed.

                  Basing your opinions on eudev developers is really not smart. Also calling for modularity but not knowing how modular systemd is, while at the same time suggesting that duplicating code across packages is a good thing: Jeez!
                  I havent changed topics at all. You just seem to be incapable of comprehending the topic that I'm on.

                  No the eudev fork was made from a version of udev prior to it being merged to systemd. And I'm not talking about build modularity, but about package modularity. But since you don't seem to know what I'm saying then there isnt really much point in repeating myself again is there.

                  If you arent capable of understanding what I said the first and second times, then there isnt any point in saying it again a third time.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                    Interesting. What OS and version are you using? Which version of the kernel and PulseAudio? Did you change any PulseAudio defaults? What are your hardware specifications?



                    I take it that you have never used systemd yourself? Because it works like a dream. Thanks to the awesome work being done by other Gentoo devs, systemd on Gentoo makes the whole setup and managing process much easier. Everything related to system and daemon startup is managed from a single, coherent interface, using unified and easy to understand unit files. And it allows combining all the different functionality in new and exciting ways without any effort. Heck, I would not have even bothered to install a login manager, if a newer version of D-Bus was available in Portage that has a certain bug fixed that prevents systemd user sessions from starting correctly. That's because systemd makes it all much simpler and easier.

                    What I don't like is the negative attitude to it without any real justification. Sure, OpenRC works, as it worked before. Sure, it's an amazing tool to use on BSDs. But there is no reason to hate systemd for that. Or Poettering, even more so. Or making it harder for users who do want to take advantage of it to use systemd - which I have heard from some Gentoo developers, when I mentioned systemd, they said that they just don't want to support anything to do with it, citing the long-term plans of upstream that they don't like and ignoring the actual technical merits of the software...
                    Thats all good. I'm not at all implying that systemd shouldnt be supported. Of course it should. What I am saying is that it shouldnt be to the exclusion of everything else.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                      There is no winning an argument here, I've already won the argument. All you and Frign have on your side is "Well its different. Its not the way we've done it in the past, therefore it sucks." And when I just asked you whether or not you'd use it after time proved that it was perfectly good and usable, you replied that you were thankful that Gentoo gave you the freedom to still not use it. Proving that your argument against systemd is not based on a matter of merit or immaturity in the project, your problem with the project is religious and ideological.
                      I never said anything about who could and could not use it. You seem to be real good at making shit up.

                      On the contrary my problem with it is the belief that everyone should have to use it simply because it exists.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                        No the eudev fork was made from a version of udev prior to it being merged to systemd.
                        No it wasn't. Here's the commit where udev was isolated from systemd sources.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                          You didnt answer my question... Why should I do it? It's the upstream packagers job to keep his packages distro agnostic. Gentoo has a goal of keeping there packages as close to upstream as possible.

                          Just because the distro package -can- do upstreams work for them does -not- mean they should.
                          Gentoo has the goal of keeping close to upstream? Sweet. Then systemd and udev in one package and you should just be changing the symlink for init to be pointing at openrc instead of systemd.

                          As far as modularity goes.. I don't think that word means what you think it means. Systemd the project is modular. Thats why you can mix and match as many components as you want at compile time. Or you can just turn them off in the config files at runtime. What you want is a piece-meal setup.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teho View Post
                            No it wasn't. Here's the commit where udev was isolated from systemd sources.
                            ok my bad. A simple oversight on my part.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                              I never said anything about who could and could not use it. You seem to be real good at making shit up.

                              On the contrary my problem with it is the belief that everyone should have to use it simply because it exists.
                              Its the belief that everyone should use it so we can stop arguing about even more minor differences in the core of linux distros. We have enough fragmentation already. Keep your deb vs rpm wars, keep your package management, but lets have SOME similarity and some cohesion.

                              Comment


                              • Sorry but I disagree completely and I always will. Systemd isnt the solution and it never will be.

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