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Systemd 198 Brings "Many Big Changes"

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  • #16
    I don't mind systemd, if there is a target market for it that means there is a group of people that feels/think they need this piece of software and they can take profit from it, and that's OK. Personally I don't need CoreOS, neither it will make my life easier. Hence I don't need systemd and it does not suit my needs. Systemd is not about an init manager anymore but as it has been said, it is an effort to reduce fragmentation using a particular software ecosystem, Systemd. That's also OK to me. I don't mind the fragmentation "problem", for me it is not a problem but I understand that for some users it might be a burden and that they can benefit from less fragmentation. I just wonder if we will manage to reconcile both views as far as possible in a practical way.

    And by the way, there are a lot of childish statements all around the web about how much some people hate Y software and about how much they love Z software. That's bullshit. Sane people don't mix emotions with compiled source code.
    Last edited by zwastik; 03-08-2013, 08:23 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by zwastik View Post
      And by the way, there are a lot of childish statements all around the web about how much some people hate Y software and about how much they love Z software. That's bullshit. Sane people don't mix emotions with compiled source code.
      The most true and sane statement I ever read on Phoronix, I would just add "or licenses" to the last sentence to make it even better.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
        The most true and sane statement I ever read on Phoronix, I would just add "or licenses" to the last sentence to make it even better.
        Code: you cant everybody happy.
        License: Do away with commercial CLA, stay on free licenses. 99% of discussion will go away.

        Here is a great chance for you to get what you want; Just say no to drugs and CLA.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ericg View Post

          3) Ruining Linux? By what? Removing the fragmentation and inconsistencies? By getting rid of shell scripts and replacing them with flat ini files? If you want to argue against systemd, then bring specific technical faults with specific examples. Otherwise shutup, sit down, and let the people who actually UNDERSTAND whats going on do what they've set out to do.
          By making it less compatible with other Unix's. With init systems you could basically use the same scripts. You can use the init files to launch services on Solaris or FreeBSD.

          But on the other hand, who wants to limit themselves to the lowest common denominator, linux has some awesome kernel API's, let's use them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by WorBlux View Post
            By making it less compatible with other Unix's. With init systems you could basically use the same scripts. You can use the init files to launch services on Solaris or FreeBSD.
            You couldn't use them on solaris, solaris has their own init manager like systemd.

            And the various *BSD's prob couldn't use the same scripts anyway because of diferences in file location or permissions or any of the other hundred and a half problems you run into when writing sh scripts. And fixing them may or may not be non-trivial since sh scripts are inherently ugly to write and debug. (This coming from an Arch user who HAS had to write, change and debug a few rc scripts)

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            • #21
              I wonder if there will ever be something posted on systemd that won't be cluttered by ad-hominem and slippery-slope arguments.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Micket View Post
                I wonder if there will ever be something posted on systemd that won't be cluttered by ad-hominem and slippery-slope arguments.
                You mean like taking the moronix out of phoronix? Nah, lets just keep trolling around. Actually I know of some people measuring the adoption rate amongst air-heads as the valid/shit-ratio of phoronix forum comments. By such metrics systemd is gaining. Of course the air-heads are wasting time right now on shell-scripting so they dont have the time for joining the party.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Micket View Post
                  I wonder if there will ever be something posted on systemd that won't be cluttered by ad-hominem and slippery-slope arguments.
                  That's mostly just because of LP's personality. Linus has charisma, RMS has presence of mind, LP has neither. Nor does he have enough common sense to keep away from drama. I dislike him myself but, unlike many others, he does more coding than talking. Need to give him some credit for that.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                    That's mostly just because of LP's personality. Linus has charisma, RMS has presence of mind, LP has neither. Nor does he have enough common sense to keep away from drama. I dislike him myself but, unlike many others, he does more coding than talking. Need to give him some credit for that.
                    Since when did Linus have all that much charisma?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      Since when did Linus have all that much charisma?
                      Linus has charisma, he just isnt afraid to cut the act and call bullshit when its necessary.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                        Since when did Linus have all that much charisma?
                        Not sure, probably he was born that way.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                          That's mostly just because of LP's personality. Linus has charisma, RMS has presence of mind, LP has neither. Nor does he have enough common sense to keep away from drama. I dislike him myself but, unlike many others, he does more coding than talking. Need to give him some credit for that.
                          Yeah, another ad-hominen attack. Try using arguments and talk about the software. And I mean technical bits, not something vague.

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                          • #28
                            Wow, this was unexpected. Whats the deal with all you people defending systemd? I don't get it? It breaks compatibility by requiring all new scripts to be written, most of which don't exist yet. Thet increase the complexity of the scripts considerably. They change syntax for no other reason than to change it....

                            And all of this is somehow considered a good thing?

                            It's less compatible.
                            It more complex.
                            It does waaaaaayyyy more than service management.
                            It doesnt do service management very well.
                            It -IS- buggy.

                            It does -NOT- eliminate scripting, it simply replaces it with a more complex higher level language that is less suited to the job.

                            Since when exactly did shell scripting become a bad thing? You take one of the most powerful and standardized features of linux and try to use it as an arguement... Theres something seriously screwed up about that.

                            "The simplest way to accomplish something is the best way"
                            Last edited by duby229; 03-08-2013, 02:38 PM.

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                            • #29
                              systemd supports init scripts, so you don't *need* to write new scripts.

                              I don't see why the opposite (an init script which reads systemd units and acts based on their content) can't be true. ;p

                              Of course, it'd probably be really complicated, and you'd be better off writing a binary for your own OS which parses systemd units. To each his own, I guess. But since Linux OSs are the only ones which are using systemd (and not all of them are), and other init systems are so much better, you shouldn't have any trouble finding scripts for your OS. And if you do, since they're so easy to write, you can just make one on the fly, right?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                                Wow, this was unexpected. Whats the deal with all you people defending systemd? I don't get it? It breaks compatibility by requiring all new scripts to be written, most of which don't exist yet. Thet increase the complexity of the scripts considerably. They change syntax for no other reason than to change it....

                                "Breaks compatibility" ? It can run rc scripts just fine, you just dont get the bonuses of systemd. "They have to be written" So what? Unit files are like 10 lines of code. "They change syntax for no other reason than to change it" No they dont. They add in syntax to unit files but they dont CHANGE the syntax. Backwards compatibility exists.


                                And all of this is somehow considered a good thing?

                                It's less compatible.
                                It has the expressed and explicit goal of being a LINUX project. Not unix. If FreeBSD wants to adopt systemd all they have to do is bring the same features to their kernel that the linux kernel does. But systemd's development wont be held back because FreeBSD doesnt have developers.

                                It more complex.
                                It does waaaaaayyyy more than service management.
                                Modularity beyond any extreme, and perfectly compatibile with existing solutions. Its goal hasn't been to do just service management for years, and the developers have been honest about that.

                                It doesnt do service management very well.
                                It does service management perfectly well... Zero problems with services since early F15

                                It -IS- buggy.
                                All software is buggy. Welcome to the real world-- nothings perfect. SysV wasn't either.

                                It does -NOT- eliminate scripting, it simply replaces it with a more complex higher level language that is less suited to the job.
                                It replaces it with declarative, ini style configs. It tells systemctl what it wants to do, and systemctl manages it.

                                Since when exactly did shell scripting become a bad thing?
                                When it became buggy and ugly and not cross-distro, when all the differences in the distro started having to write their own rc scripts because the differences couldnt be abstracted at the shell level.

                                "The simplest way to accomplish something is the best way"
                                True, but sometimes "the simplest way" is also the cop-out, half-assed way-- welcome to SysV.

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