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  • #46
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    I never hear anyone bitch about Ubuntu's Upstart, Apple's launchd, or OpenRC.

    People only seem to be bitching about systemd.
    Maybe there is a reason?
    People dont complain about Launchd cuz its had how many years to be perfected? OpenRC isn't all that much better than sysV since parallelization is broken half the time from what i've heard. And there's no one to complain about Upstart since Ubuntu's userbase (User-friendly, newbie friendly, Linux distro) dont know what to complain about.

    systemd gets flak because its the only one adding features and therefore the only one in the news.

    When was the last time sysV got a new feature? Probably a long time ago-- not in the news. People forget about it.
    When was the last time Upstart got a new feature release? Not recently. Last time I saw a news posting on phoronix about an upstart feature release was about a year and a half ago.

    When was the last time OpenRC got a feature release? I couldnt even tell you because I dont see it in the news AT ALL on ANY site.
    When was the last time systemd got a new feature release? like a week ago.

    All four systems bring up init just fine. But systemd is the only one thats actually moving forward. (You can argue that its moving in the wrong direction, but atleast its MOVING.) All the other projects are sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by johnc View Post
      This is the part I'm fuzzy on. Isn't udev just its own package out doing its own thing? Or has it been pulled into the systemd tree and if so... umm... why? That would be like pulling X into systemd.
      udev was pulled into the systemd tree, sometime around systemd 189 or 187 I think. (It was when systemd picked up udev version numbering). It was pulled in because systemd handles module loading and so they were looking to have a closer relationship between the program that detects hardware (udev), and the program that handles making that hardware work (systemd, modules).

      You can have udev without systemd, but you cant have systemd without udev. And if youre one of the extreme fanatics who shun anything REMOTELY linked to systemd, you can rely on gentoo to provide eudev which is about..10 releases behind I think. They forked off of udev/systemd 189 or 187 and systemd is currently at 197

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Ericg View Post
        udev was pulled into the systemd tree, sometime around systemd 189 or 187 I think. (It was when systemd picked up udev version numbering). It was pulled in because systemd handles module loading and so they were looking to have a closer relationship between the program that detects hardware (udev), and the program that handles making that hardware work (systemd, modules).
        Was this because udev was no longer maintained and therefore could be picked off, or just a matter of all the udev maintainers agreeing to move under systemd?

        edit: I just get an overall uneasy feeling that Red Hat (and to some degree Intel) has a bit too much influence in the Linux ecosystem. It's not just this systemd case... it's a variety of things.
        Last edited by johnc; 01-28-2013, 04:27 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Ericg View Post
          Theeeeeeeeeen...who knows XD

          Edit: maybe its listed as an F19 feature because it'll have it at launch-time? When F18 got released systemd didnt have it and therefore wasn't considered a "Feature." F19 will have systemd 197+ at launch time and therefore it IS considered a feature?
          Some features are specifically disabled by default for Fedora 18 for these reasons (directly taken from the updates-testing description)
          From the updates:
          Code:
          A few exceptions to the upstream summary apply to the package in Fedora 18. Several upstream changes could
          introduce incompatible behavior within a Fedora release, so they are not included in this update:
          * `rescue.service` can still start `sushell` if configured so by `/etc/sysconfig/init`. Upstream
          supports only `sulogin`.
          * The udev support for predictable network interface names is present, but it is not enabled by default. The
          udev rule file `80-net-name-slot.rules` is simply not included in the package. If you want to try the
          feature, obtain the file from the upstream repository and place it in `/etc/udev/rules.d/` yourself.
          * The Fedora-specific `http-daemon.target`, the LSB facilities "MTA", "smtpdaemon", "httpd" and the
          `single.service` alias were removed upstream, but are still present in this update.
          * Building of the merged `nss-myhostname` is disabled. Fedora 18 keeps using the separate
          `nss-myhostname` source package.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by johnc View Post
            Was this because udev was no longer maintained and therefore could be picked off, or just a matter of all the udev maintainers agreeing to move under systemd?
            Kay, the primary udev maintainer was one of the earliest contributors to systemd along with Lennart and others and they discussed and determined together than systemd and udev merge will benefit both the projects because of the tight relationship between them.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
              Bullshit. The CoreOS movement is about a bunch of hackers deciding their maintainership is better handled in a unified tree based on common goals. Pick it up if you like. If you dont like it; Go eat shit from all the drama queen forksters and CLAed walled gardens. Mind you though they are doing a shit job because they waste their time on moronix flames and keeping compability between their ever more fragmented shit.
              Listen kiddo, the Linux ecosystem works best when software competes based on merit. That's what any sane user wants -- different approaches being tested, and the best ones winning out.

              Your pathological violent dictator obsession is not good for anyone, including yourself. If you are afraid of honest competition, Linux is not the operating system for you. In every thread you spew hatred on any project you yourself don't seem to be using, and wish harm and death upon open source developers. You need psychological treatment before you hurt yourself or others.

              Now, systemd guys have caused a lot of controversy recently, so yes, their management is rather confrontational. The udev breakage and the stated plan to break all Linux systems not based on systemd on their discretion are not a constructive way to work within a community. If they get off this train and interoperate with the rest of the planet, then there will be nothing wrong with systemd, and projects can once again compete on merit and not power games.

              That's it. Now go take your medicine.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by johnc View Post
                edit: I just get an overall uneasy feeling that Red Hat (and to some degree Intel) has a bit too much influence in the Linux ecosystem. It's not just this systemd case... it's a variety of things.
                Welcome to a meritocracy man. Those who do the work get to decide the direction. If you don't like it, you're more than welcome to fork and decide for yourself (beauty of open-source) but then you have to come up with a better reason than "Its not Red Hat / Intel" to convince distros to pick up your fork.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  I just get an overall uneasy feeling that Red Hat (and to some degree Intel) has a bit too much influence in the Linux ecosystem. It's not just this systemd case... it's a variety of things.
                  Congratz. You just figured out who really pays for the development. Unless you think you are entitled to dictate what others shoulld do in their free or pay time .. BTW Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek+a bunch of other hackers are there to fuck your little conspiracy, at least at the systemd tree.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ericg View Post

                    systemd gets flak because its the only one adding features and therefore the only one in the news.
                    This is my complaint right here... What features are there to add? Manage services.... Duh. Make sure they are started properly and closed properly... What more is there?

                    Adding features seems like an excuse to obfuscate.

                    It shouldnt be responsible for power management or dev management or job schedules or network interfaces or tty interfaces. Those should each be independent services that of course sysd should be able to start or close. And what happens when someone decides to develop a competing power manager or job scheduler? Why should sysd be responsible to managething infrastructure that has nothing at all to do with its main purpose?
                    Last edited by duby229; 01-28-2013, 04:55 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                      Adding features seems like an excuse to obfuscate.
                      too bad you didnt grasp the concept of CoreOS. Systemd is not about init anymore. It is a git tree for sane core code maintained by sane people. If you dont get it by now please wrap your self in iron chains and jump into the sea.
                      Last edited by funkSTAR; 01-28-2013, 04:56 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Most Linux installations still don't use systemd. Not to worry.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                          too bad you didnt grasp the concept of CoreOS. Systemd is not about init anymore. It is a git tree for sane core code maintained by sane people. If you dont get by now please wrap your self in iron chains and jump into the sea.
                          Fuck coreos... If thats what they want then they can implement that on its own distro.... Call it coreos.... But leave the rest of our shit alone please.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by johnc View Post
                            Was this because udev was no longer maintained and therefore could be picked off, or just a matter of all the udev maintainers agreeing to move under systemd?
                            The main udev maintainer (Kay Sievers) was the one who did the merge of udev into systemd (he is also a systemd maintainer), the udev creator (Greg Kroah-Hartman) appears to be very supportive of the move. All the people (as far as I can tell) with commit rights to the original udev now has commit rights to systemd (including the Canonical guy who does all the keymap stuff in udev). I have not seen any complaints from anyone involved on any of the official lists/channels.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                              Fuck coreos... If thats what they want then they can implement that on its own distro.... Call it coreos.... But leave the rest of our shit alone please.
                              You need a gun then. If you want to keep hackers from merging their code to systemd. Good luck with that gunman. BTW core code is not a full distro. If you dont like the new world order go fork some shit and a fool of your self. Hey you might even make the head lines on moronix. A true honor you know ..
                              Last edited by funkSTAR; 01-28-2013, 05:06 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Its already being done... .Maybe its you who should be doing some reading.... Ignorance is no excuse....

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