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Tux3 Comes Back To Life, Brings Competition To EXT4

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  • Tux3 Comes Back To Life, Brings Competition To EXT4

    Phoronix: Tux3 Comes Back To Life, Brings Competition To EXT4

    It's been a few years since last having anything to talk about with regard to the Tux3 file-system, but with the new year comes news on Tux3. This file-system has advanced and is more competitive now with EXT4...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTI2NjE

  • #2
    Remember how fast EXT4 was before it was actually safe to use? Anyway, I'd like to see if it is actually workable before it gets rolled into several major distributions and it is found out that it looses data whenever you improperly shut down.

    Comment


    • #3
      Tux3 is a versioning file-system
      explanation please. Are we speaking of something like Windows 7 file recovery? Or build-in SVN style (which would be kind of weird)?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
        Remember how fast EXT4 was before it was actually safe to use? Anyway, I'd like to see if it is actually workable before it gets rolled into several major distributions and it is found out that it looses data whenever you improperly shut down.
        It still can be that fast (and mostly safe) if your computer has backup power.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
          Remember how fast EXT4 was before it was actually safe to use? Anyway, I'd like to see if it is actually workable before it gets rolled into several major distributions and it is found out that it looses data whenever you improperly shut down.
          Slowest thing about EXT4 in the linux kernel is -> stable_write_page ~ it's the reason why Google, Samsung, Mao Bao, Oracle, etc ~ ALL revert that feature on modern kernels for their purposes (think every android device, some google/oracle infrastructure/etc), it has a nasty performance impact on EXT4, especially where high-performance/time-critical operations are desired. You end up with jbd2/sdaX/X spending ridiculous amounts of time on [poll_schedule_timeouts], which KILLS performance for some applications and drags/slows down the whole system. (when using stable_write_page)

          ...anyway, i am guessing you and the vast majority of users never had to worry about the EXT4 bug that you are talking about. It only affected a _very_ small number of people with _specific_ configurations required to trigger that bug. and fyi - you won't see tux3 rolled into many (more likely no) distros as the default file-system (if ever....imho, very unlikely).
          Last edited by ninez; 01-01-2013, 02:54 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ninez View Post
            Slowest thing about EXT4 in the linux kernel is -> stable_write_page ~ it's the reason why Google, Samsung, Mao Bao, Oracle, etc ~ ALL revert that feature on modern kernels for their purposes (think every android device, some google/oracle infrastructure/etc), it has a nasty performance impact on EXT4, especially where high-performance/time-critical operations are desired. You end up with jbd2/sdaX/X spending ridiculous amounts of time on [poll_schedule_timeouts], which KILLS performance for some applications and drags/slows down the whole system. (when using stable_write_page)

            ...anyway, i am guessing you and the vast majority of users never had to worry about the EXT4 bug that you are talking about. It only affected a _very_ small number of people with _specific_ configurations required to trigger that bug. and fyi - you won't see tux3 rolled into many (more likely no) distros as the default file-system (if ever....imho, very unlikely).
            Well, it is all fun and games until you lose a large section of a paper to it :P From a programming prospective, the default way that EXT4 came out was not at all data safe. I mean, I could understand if you were running on backup power or from a device where it is not really that necessary, but it is an absolute must for a typical desktop or laptop.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
              Well, it is all fun and games until you lose a large section of a paper to it :P From a programming prospective, the default way that EXT4 came out was not at all data safe. I mean, I could understand if you were running on backup power or from a device where it is not really that necessary, but it is an absolute must for a typical desktop or laptop.
              This is why I like CoW FSes like Btrfs. No need to compromise performance to guarantee safe writes. I hope they officially start calling btrfs stable this year, because it is great not just for datacenters but for regular users too.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
                Well, it is all fun and games until you lose a large section of a paper to it :P From a programming prospective, the default way that EXT4 came out was not at all data safe. I mean, I could understand if you were running on backup power or from a device where it is not really that necessary, but it is an absolute must for a typical desktop or laptop.
                True enough. That being said, i don't use stable_page_writes on a single machine of mine, not desktop, not laptop... it creates to much of a bottleneck and blows the big one. (here's hoping 3.8/3.9 fixes the situation. we will see). Using EXT4 has been a good experience over the last several years; the only data loss that i ever really had happen was a drive that failed from other causes... so i am guessing if in all these years i haven't been affected on any machine, and am currently not having those kinds of issues ~ i must be doing something right, really lucky, which i doubt (or the bugs in ext4 are really hard to trigger / require very unusual circumstances).

                either way. i think ext4 has room for improvements, and i have no idea when i will actually use Btrfs...someday

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                  explanation please. Are we speaking of something like Windows 7 file recovery? Or build-in SVN style (which would be kind of weird)?
                  Versioning as in snapshotting, like Windows "previous versions" except way nicer and more efficient, and built into the filesystem instead of the virtual block device. Multiple read/write snapshots and snapshots of snapshots. The performance sweet spot is targetted at a few tens of simultaneous snapshots, with a planned limit of 512 simultaneous snapshots, though we might increase that to 32K. Basic algorithms for this are designed, prototyped and stress tested, but not added to Tux3 yet.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    Slowest thing about EXT4 in the linux kernel is -> stable_write_page ~ it's the reason why Google, Samsung, Mao Bao, Oracle, etc ~ ALL revert that feature on modern kernels for their purposes (think every android device, some google/oracle infrastructure/etc), it has a nasty performance impact on EXT4, especially where high-performance/time-critical operations are desired. You end up with jbd2/sdaX/X spending ridiculous amounts of time on [poll_schedule_timeouts], which KILLS performance for some applications and drags/slows down the whole system. (when using stable_write_page)...
                    Tux3 implements the equivalent of stable pages at the filesystem level, without the performance drawback. We call it "page fork" and in fact it speeds Tux3 up a lot, as described in the new news post.

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                    • #11
                      I like very much the potentiality of this project so i wish that reach quickly a good stage of development so that it can be seriously considered even as an alternative to ext4 (thanks eg. to snapshots).
                      Since will more light respect Btrfs but with similar enterprise functionalities.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ninez View Post
                        Slowest thing about EXT4 in the linux kernel is -> stable_write_page ~ it's the reason why Google, Samsung, Mao Bao, Oracle, etc ~ ALL revert that feature on modern kernels for their purposes (think every android device, some google/oracle infrastructure/etc), it has a nasty performance impact on EXT4, especially where high-performance/time-critical operations are desired. You end up with jbd2/sdaX/X spending ridiculous amounts of time on [poll_schedule_timeouts], which KILLS performance for some applications and drags/slows down the whole system. (when using stable_write_page)
                        Tux3 implements the equivalent of "stable_write_page" without a performance hit, in fact we see a huge performance boost, about 40%. We call it "page fork" and it was originally designed more than four years back, but we only got to test it ten days ago, when enough other machinery fell into place to get meaningly measurements. Full credit to Hirofumi for bringing this tricky thing to reality.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ninez View Post
                          Using EXT4 has been a good experience over the last several years; the only data loss that i ever really had happen was a drive that failed from other causes... so i am guessing if in all these years i haven't been affected on any machine, and am currently not having those kinds of issues ~ i must be doing something right, really lucky, which i doubt (or the bugs in ext4 are really hard to trigger / require very unusual circumstances).
                          Your experience mirrors many other's, including mine. This is heartening for us, because it proves that an aggressively optimized filesystem code base can be brought to 100% reliabililty (rounding up) in a timeframe that keeps it relevant.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by danielbot View Post
                            Your experience mirrors many other's, including mine. This is heartening for us, because it proves that an aggressively optimized filesystem code base can be brought to 100% reliabililty (rounding up) in a timeframe that keeps it relevant.
                            I agree to the point where i have to patch it, to get my applications to work.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by danielbot View Post
                              Versioning as in snapshotting, like Windows "previous versions" except way nicer and more efficient, and built into the filesystem instead of the virtual block device. Multiple read/write snapshots and snapshots of snapshots. The performance sweet spot is targetted at a few tens of simultaneous snapshots, with a planned limit of 512 simultaneous snapshots, though we might increase that to 32K. Basic algorithms for this are designed, prototyped and stress tested, but not added to Tux3 yet.
                              WANT! Even if it was much slower than ext4, I'd still take it.

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