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Why Mono Is Desirable For Linux

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  • #31
    Originally posted by directhex View Post
    you don't have a coherent goal
    MY goal is to invest my development time on a platform with a viable long-term future.

    MY goal is to make sure the time and money I invest in learning a new platform is going to pay off.

    If I had invested my time In these other Microsoft technologies, I would have WASTED it. Actually I DID end up spending a LOT of time learning "Visual Basic" and "Microsoft Access" and those skills are now worth ZERO.

    Do you talk in monotone in real life? Well maybe you do because you speak "mono"! REAL HUMAN BEINGS can put inflection in their speech.
    Last edited by frantaylor; 09-14-2012, 12:31 PM.

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    • #32
      (Disclaimer: This is just my opinion!)
      I have more or less no opinion regarding mono but I have to say that C# is "Java done right" (especially the 4.0 and 4.5 version of C#).
      I programmed Java for years and was quite happy with it. Last year I started programming C# (because I had to) and now I'm in love with it and really dislike Java and how some things are done there.
      I believe that every programmer that _really_ used C# and Java would say the same.

      Regarding why Microsoft hasn't switched everything to C#:
      1. Probably because it's not that easy to rewrite the work of years (the same reason why there are still COBOL programs out there)!
      2. They are probably smart enough to know that you should choose the right tool for the job. For example: If you need high performance you go with a low level language. If you don't care about performance and it's just a small piece of software use a scripting language, if you try to be platform independent you use a language that compiles to bytecode and run it in a VM, etc...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
        MY goal is to invest my development time on a platform with a viable long-term future.
        As long as that code gets thrown out with sufficient regularity? "Microsoft is CONSTANTLY pushing out patches to fix security issues in 20-year old C++ code."

        MY goal is to make sure the time and money I invest in learning a new platform is going to pay off.
        So if you'd started with C# in 2002, when it shipped, you'd no longer be able to write it today, right? Right? Right?

        If I had invested my time In these other Microsoft technologies, I would have WASTED it. Actually I DID end up spending a LOT of time learning "Visual Basic" and "Microsoft Access" and those skills are now worth ZERO.
        ActiveX shipped in 1996, and can still be used today on the latest version of MSIE.

        Which high level Linux frameworks from 1996 are still in use today, exactly?

        If you're learning one specific framework without learning transferable skills, then you have only yourself to blame.

        Do you talk in monotone in real life? Well maybe you do because you speak "mono"! REAL HUMAN BEINGS can put inflection in their speech.
        I don't start RANDOMLY SHOUTING in the middle of conversations, no.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by directhex View Post
          So if you'd started with C# in 2002, when it shipped
          I'd have been using a development environment that was only available at the time on Windows.


          ActiveX shipped in 1996, and can still be used today on the latest version of MSIE.
          AND NOWHERE ELSE!

          Which high level Linux frameworks from 1996 are still in use today, exactly?
          MOTIF shipped in the MID '80's and can STILL BE USED TODAY on A WIDE VARIETY OF PLATFORMS,

          In fact it is STILL supported and STILL maintained actively and you can get development support TODAY with a phone call.


          Oracle has been on Linux for many many years! They have an extensive application development environment.
          Shoot, there is a WIDE variety of professional grade SQL databases on Linux, ALL of them have been around for 20 years or more.

          If you're learning one specific framework without learning transferable skills, then you have only yourself to blame.
          So ***I*** am to blame for Microsoft's inability to provide long-term stability? Nice to know!


          I don't start RANDOMLY SHOUTING in the middle of conversations, no.
          you just did!
          Last edited by frantaylor; 09-14-2012, 01:00 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by directhex View Post
            Which high level Linux frameworks from 1996 are still in use today, exactly?
            Qt comes to mind. (It appeared way before 1996, 1992 to be exact, so if your question really is about 1996 specifically, then I don't know.)

            Also, does Gtk from 1998 count?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              Qt comes to mind. (It appeared way before 1996, 1992 to be exact, so if your question really is about 1996 specifically, then I don't know.)

              Also, does Gtk from 1998 count?
              Really are there ANY deprecated development environments on Linux? They are ALL still around. I can pop in one of my old SLS disks from 1995 and ALL of those tools are still around and still supported. Perl, C, C++, scheme, Motif, they were all available then and they are still available now, with support even. Your programs from back then will still work today.

              Good luck to you if you have an old Visual Basic program from back then. Might as well throw it out and re-write it.

              If you actually want to make money in this business, you have to realize that customers don't want to throw out their code every 5 years to catch the latest trend. Heavy industry runs on 20 year cycles at least. They expect that kind of lifespan out of their equipment and they expect no less from their computer systems. I know of many companies that still run OpenVMS on Alphas because that is what they bought in their last cycle and they are still getting value from their systems. They've already been burned by Microsoft when all their old Visual Basic code was deprecated. If you want to get the business of these companies then you have to provide a non-Microsoft solution because they don't want to get burned again.

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              • #37
                as much as monos whine no serious FOSS project will switch to C#[or whatever other #] with or without Mono and that is a fact, for commercial stuff maybe since most of them don't give a rat ass about quality as long they can sell it fast and produce it cheap.

                what i believe can have a real boost in linux would be Python over LLVM[instant Mono HeadShot] since python is risk free and already have bindings with everything you can think of and very well known and widely used already beside the fact is DE/library independant unlike Mono

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                  as much as monos whine no serious FOSS project will switch to C#[or whatever other #] with or without Mono and that is a fact, for commercial stuff maybe since most of them don't give a rat ass about quality as long they can sell it fast and produce it cheap.

                  what i believe can have a real boost in linux would be Python over LLVM[instant Mono HeadShot] since python is risk free and already have bindings with everything you can think of and very well known and widely used already beside the fact is DE/library independant unlike Mono
                  My experience with writing interpreted GUI applications is that the program is burning 1% of its cycles on the interpreted code and 99% of the cycles in the underlying framework, so accelerating the interpreter is not going to give much of a performance boost.

                  Nevertheless it is still an excellent idea. Many of those gnome programs for system administration are already python scripts, it sure doesn't slow them down.

                  Perl also has bindings for everything in the world, choosing between them is not too bad, you win either way.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by bornslippy View Post
                    T

                    ...

                    After giving up on Mono, I moved to C/C++ and Qt, and discovered that it is a comparable solution to .NET. Eventually I moved more towards writing web code in Python/Django, and desktop apps in Python/PyQT, and whenever I need extreme performance, I just port functionality to C and call it from Python. Vastly superior to C# on Windows or Linux.
                    It's worth remembering that C-octothorpe and .NET were an attempt by MS to push C & C++ out of the Windows developer mainstream: thus closing the platform by eliminating all those pesky competing C & C++ compiler vendors.

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                    • #40
                      Oracle has been on Linux for many many years! They have an extensive application development environment.
                      Shoot, there is a WIDE variety of professional grade SQL databases on Linux, ALL of them have been around for 20 years or more.
                      which has nothing to do with .NET or are you really comparing those Oracle forms to .NET? I seriously hope not, because that'd mean that you've really no clue what you're talking about. And yes I once had to work with that stuff. Never again.

                      also: Access? Visual Basic? Who the fuck would ever use that, aside from the first time you tried it and saw how bad it is/was. (yes, I know, there are enough developers out there that think connecting to a MySQL database through Access is a good thing)

                      And as someone who coded and codes both Java and C#: C# is better. Regardless about which point you are talking.

                      As for mono: The only bad thing about that is, that they (the company behind Mono which I'm not able to spell correctly) aren't porting WPF. That stuff is so friggin awesome.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        Qt comes to mind. (It appeared way before 1996, 1992 to be exact, so if your question really is about 1996 specifically, then I don't know.)

                        Also, does Gtk from 1998 count?
                        Qt 1.0 and GTK 1.0 are still shipping? An app built against those will build today and run?

                        If not, you need to relearn/retrain every time the Mad Hatter shouts "change places!" and random APIs get thrown out of the window

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
                          Really are there ANY deprecated development environments on Linux? They are ALL still around. I can pop in one of my old SLS disks from 1995 and ALL of those tools are still around and still supported. Perl, C, C++, scheme, Motif, they were all available then and they are still available now, with support even. Your programs from back then will still work today.

                          ...
                          If you try to build a program written to a 5 or 10 year old version of KDE or Gnome then you'll need that version installed.

                          Example: my fave MP3 player, XMMS, uses GTK 1.2.10 toolkit that no distro (that I use) ships anymore.

                          Certainly I can build the toolkit, but doing so amounts pretty much to building Gnome 2, and that's really no fun at all.

                          So, yeah, in theory there are no deprecated environments on Linux. In practice however...

                          --

                          I think *NIX use of C & C++ as main system & library level languages is a great thing - the languages are defined by ISO or such - can't be arbitrarily modified by single vendor to counter perceived competitive threat.

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                          • #43
                            The best choice for a games is C++. Maybe for a small project C# or JAVA are ok, but for more advanced games these langueages are useless. These langs has got too big overhead and this is a waste of memory and CPU (eg worse hit in a cache). It's better do do more advanced physic, AI or sound and other CPU resources give to a graphic driver than waste a lot of resources for a language.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by hoohoo View Post
                              i think *nix use of c & c++ as main system & library level languages is a great thing - the languages are defined by iso or such - can't be arbitrarily modified by single vendor to counter perceived competitive threat.
                              iso/iec 23270?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by russofris View Post
                                I believe that the majority of the resistance to C# adoption has little to do with the language, and much to do with MS. I like C# as much as I like Java. It makes writing middleware logic a breeze to the point where I can write and navigate code as I think. I feel that java is more desirable for non-gui applications and .Net is more desirable for GUI applications. I would love to see the stability of the mono runtime improve a bit, as I have had a couple bad experiences in the enterprise.

                                The entire patent argument may be moot, but is part of a larger fear. The fear is that somehow MS will find a way to screw us. They have done so in the past, they will do so in the future. I cannot help but feel a hefty amount of paranoia every time I see C# running on linux. Its uncomfortable and I don't like it.

                                I hope the author is right. I hope mono does great things for the linux desktop. I hope MS doesn't pull another SCO or some new trick.

                                F
                                Hmmm, I don't use C# or mono, or Java for that matter. C++, C, Python & PHP will get you pretty far ;-)

                                But I do fear MS using .NET & C# as a wedge to open legal action against Linux.

                                However, I think MS submitted C# to ISO or ECMA as a standard some years ago.

                                So is my fear irrational, or is MS even more devious than I think it is?

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