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OpenSUSE: Not Everyone Likes SystemD

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tkmorris View Post
    I bow before your humbleness. That's the western way of debate, people are invested, that's not like Japanesey 'debates' where it seems no one disagrees, and thus everyone is happy cuddling themselves.
    It's not about a magical Teletubby world where everyone speaks with a really annoyingly high-pitched voice and smiles and pretends to agree even when they don't. It's just about not being a dick for no reason - basic social skills, really.

    If you're a dick to people, they'll have a hard time seeing through that to the actual message you're trying to get through. It gets read as 'blah blah blah THIS IS BULLSHIT blah blah blah YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SOFTWARE blah blah blah I DEMAND YOU DO WHAT I THINK blah blah blah'. If you focus on the message instead of offending people, they tend to at least make an effort to listen to what you have to say.

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    • #32
      I have tested numerous alphas and betas of Windows XP, Vista and Windows 7 since XP was called Windows Neptune and believe me or not, it has always booted successfully.
      Believe or not I have booted many _PRODUCTION_ versions of NT 4, 200, XP, Vista AND windows 7 and had many of them fail to boot at all.

      Microsoft Betas serve as two purposes:
      1. As marketing to techno nerds
      2. way for serious developers to get exposure to updated APIs to test their applications and drivers against.

      Fedora Alphas and Betas are actually early development versions that if developed by Microsoft no one in their right mind would allow to be exposed to end users.

      Fedora production is Redhat's beta.

      Beleive it or not, things work a bit differently for open source projects then they do for Microsoft.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by birdie View Post
        It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.

        Distros are indeed forced, as I've already mentioned: user space applications become dependent on systemd.

        There's no way we'll be able to stick to SysVintit as in two three years the only way to run Linux without systemd will be to use terribly outdated software components.

        Best of luck,

        The Nightly isos from fedora should at least boot on some hardware though they don't receive the QA that the beta and up receive. The post-branched pre-beta snapshots aren't meant for "public" consumption but for the testers, of which you don't seem to be. Fedora, as an opensource project, relies on both paid QA as well as community member of the QA team, in addition to those community members who simply want to run very early snapshots and provide feedback. Since you seem like you aren't a part of the QA team, nor a community member who wants to help out, but rather a clueless troll, I suggest you stick to windows or apple or whatever you run (presumably not linux since most of the major distros, aside from ubuntu, seem to be converging on systemd) because your input is utterly useless.
        As for you Lennart haters: he genuinely believes in a first class OSS OS. He finds things that are broken, and sysvinit is most assuredly broken (read his damned posts out this;they are substantial, informative, and exhaustive---the man does his research before embarking on these types of projects, so any thought you've had about systemd problems have almost certainly already been considered and addressed, you just haven't taken the time to find this out) and tries to find solutions. He unequivocally makes things better for most. He makes things better and gets bitched at by clueless (or trolling) idiots hiding behind anonymous handles.

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        • #34
          --delete--
          Last edited by birdie; 09-10-2012, 05:44 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by liam View Post
            The Nightly isos from fedora should at least boot on some hardware though they don't receive the QA that the beta and up receive. The post-branched pre-beta snapshots aren't meant for "public" consumption but for the testers, of which you don't seem to be. Fedora, as an opensource project, relies on both paid QA as well as community member of the QA team, in addition to those community members who simply want to run very early snapshots and provide feedback. Since you seem like you aren't a part of the QA team, nor a community member who wants to help out, but rather a clueless troll, I suggest you stick to windows or apple or whatever you run (presumably not linux since most of the major distros, aside from ubuntu, seem to be converging on systemd) because your input is utterly useless.
            As for you Lennart haters: he genuinely believes in a first class OSS OS. He finds things that are broken, and sysvinit is most assuredly broken (read his damned posts out this;they are substantial, informative, and exhaustive---the man does his research before embarking on these types of projects, so any thought you've had about systemd problems have almost certainly already been considered and addressed, you just haven't taken the time to find this out) and tries to find solutions. He unequivocally makes things better for most. He makes things better and gets bitched at by clueless (or trolling) idiots hiding behind anonymous handles.
            This clueless troll has helped to resolve at least one hundred bugs in Linux/Open Source software but you see only what you, as a Linux fanatic, want to see, that I am a Lennart hater, a troll, etc.

            I've promised myself numerous times not to argue with people who fail to see father than their nose, who call names, who carefully choose to attack you instead of trying to do something for the common good and I'm doing this mistake again.

            Keep trolling on phoronix/ubuntu/linux.com forums - that's what you do perfectly, meanwhile I'll return back to fixing problems, writing patches and reporting bugs and regressions.

            Farewell.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by daniels View Post
              ... as opposed to the anti-systemd/PulseAudio crowd, who are always receptive to new ideas and different opinions, meek, and polite.
              Nice, your comment is really nice Actually I don't belong to any of those groups

              I just don't like when developers remove old features (and usually they can be reimplemented or preserved, like text-console-on-tty1-X.org-on-tty7 but Lennart basically says, "f*ck you, with systemd tty1 is for X.org, period") just because they think it's good for you. Unix has been here for a lot longer than most of Open Source developers have lived in this world, yet they have insolence to dictate their own rules.

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              • #37
                Whoever thinks I'm a troll/flamer, please add me to your personal ignore list. I beg you.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by phoronix View Post
                  The recently released openSUSE 12.2 does migrate from SysVinit to systemd
                  No, that is wrong. 12.1 already migrated to systemd. 12.2 just ships a newer systemd version than 12.1 did.

                  I’ve read the thread until it became ridiculously off topic (whether lemmings jump off cliffs or not) and so far systemd rants are almost exclusively from “Carlos E. R.” while pretty much everyone else has no problems with it. Then he goes on the usual rant that the “typical” problem with open source supposedly is that nobody listens to users (and by users he means him and not the majority in favor of systemd).

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    This clueless troll has helped to resolve at least one hundred bugs in Linux/Open Source software but you see only what you, as a Linux fanatic, want to see, that I am a Lennart hater, a troll, etc.

                    I've promised myself numerous times not to argue with people who fail to see father than their nose, who call names, who carefully choose to attack you instead of trying to do something for the common good and I'm doing this mistake again.

                    Keep trolling on phoronix/ubuntu/linux.com forums - that's what you do perfectly, meanwhile I'll return back to fixing problems, writing patches and reporting bugs and regressions.

                    Farewell.
                    now being the devil's advocate here naming yourself as active developer and proactive patch writer yet haven't provide any sort of technical information or enginiering POV about it[systemd sucks and lennart sucks aren't] and if you are an active developer[having hard time to believe it] you are providing that systemd failed at boot in rawhide that you should know is an automated bot that daily just do git pull -- compile -- package -- generate ISO -- publish without any sort of QA until it reaches a codebase freeze <-- the most idiotic example i've ever seen from an "engineer".

                    now your thesis that no software should fail start never is absolutely wrong[or i should say too disney world like??] and sysvinit isn't free of it either,as an experienced CLFS[for arm] user and gentoo x86_64 i can tell you sysvinit fails to boot as much as sysmted can[i have unetbootin with an gentoo iso to recover religiously in my desk/rasp from usb/SD when i touch or update my boot system], now i can accept that systemd is more complex hence harder to restore by hand than sysv scripts <-- here you are right

                    about UDEV is could be an interesting discussion and for now im not sure what (dis)/advantage can provide keep it in tree or out of tree but the other poster is right you can build udev separately [gentoo ebuild do it], so if you don't like systemd you can perfectly fine install udev externally and have fun <-- you are a developer after all right?

                    in the future if you don't wanna be taken as a troll moderate the language and focus on the thecnical side of things you consider are wrong and provide a solution/idea/improvement if possible, for now i just think systemd log system need more brain time but is not life threatening and a nice plugin system could solve it in the near term

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      ... yet they have insolence to dictate their own rules.
                      The irony is literally giving me a headache.

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                      • #41
                        systemd is good shit

                        /thread

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by birdie View Post
                          And BTW, systemd itself can leave your system unbootable (!!) - go ask Fedora 18 testers - they will surely demonstrate to you their anger.

                          A technical reason why systemd sucks big time?

                          Try to boot your system the old init = /bin/bash way, you won't be able to do anything with it, as udev was replaced with systemd and systemd cannot run when it's not a system init process.

                          That's called broken by design.

                          Sorry, but I have to say, f*ck Lennart Poettering and f*ck systemd. systemd has become a single point of failure, a Swiss army knife which once getting broken renders your system completely unusable. That's f*cking wrong. That reeks of bad incompetent design decisions.
                          I can sum up your point in:
                          1. You have little understanding on how Linux boots or actually, how many single points of failure existing during the boot process (Hint: *Many*).
                          2. You have no idea how SysV works (Hint: SysV is no better when it comes to major error handling, such as rootfs mount failure)
                          3. You *really* hate Lennart Poettering.

                          Running for the troll of the year award? *, **


                          - Gilboa
                          * Now, you may actually be a constructive member of the community that suffered from a *very* bad hair day. In this case, I'd really consider deleting this post. It reflects *very* badly on your technical merits.

                          ** EDIT:
                          Originally posted by birdie View Post
                          I've promised myself numerous times not to argue with people who fail to see father than their nose, who call names, who carefully choose to attack you instead of trying to do something for the common good and I'm doing this mistake again.
                          Give your OP message quoted above (especially the f*ck part), I'd start by looking at the mirror.
                          Last edited by gilboa; 09-11-2012, 05:35 AM.
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tkmorris View Post
                            Thank G-d you are Holier than thou!

                            I bow before your humbleness. That's the western way of debate, people are invested, that's not like Japanesey 'debates' where it seems no one disagrees, and thus everyone is happy cuddling themselves. It's even stronger in the FOSS community since people just do whatever, hierarchy is commit access, everyone is free to work the way they want, and most people want to keep it that way.

                            So it's not even close to an "us vs them" mentality, it's just plain stupid to try and force things since the sole principle of FOSS is that people's own effort is based on choice. This mentality that you can force people to be happy is pure fantasy, just like forcing systemd or really, anything! Your argument is as flawed as your logic, cuddle&be_happy would be a pretty sight but it is, objectively, unreal. We can't solve problems with love and Thai massages, and specially in a would-be free environment the most important freedom is always freedom to dissent.

                            But hey! I am sure it's being taken way for our own good, so it's cool huh?
                            Get over it.
                            No one is taking *anything* from you. No one is forcing you to use systemd, PA or GNOME 3.
                            Don't like OpenSUSE for using SystemD, stop ranting like a 5 y/o kid and switch Distro.

                            Repeat after me: this is *OpenSource*. Those who do the work, get to make the decisions.

                            - Gilboa
                            DEV: Intel S2600C0, 2xE52658V2, 32GB, 4x2TB + 2x3TB, GTX780, F21/x86_64, Dell U2711.
                            SRV: Intel S5520SC, 2xX5680, 36GB, 4x2TB, GTX550, F21/x86_64, Dell U2412..
                            BACK: Tyan Tempest i5400XT, 2xE5335, 8GB, 3x1.5TB, 9800GTX, F21/x86-64.
                            LAP: ASUS N56VJ, i7-3630QM, 16GB, 1TB, 635M, F21/x86_64.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by birdie View Post
                              I do understand why people may dislike the idea of systemd inclusion, Lennart Poettering has shown time and again that what he thinks is right is the only way to go and you can go f*ck yourself if you want to use your computer differently (for instance doing things the old SysVinit way).

                              The Open Source movement is a major f*ck up - there are a lot less people working on Linux yet people cannot even come to an agreement and work for the same purpose of making a better system.
                              You can still run systemV scripts with systemd.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by balouba View Post
                                It seems to me that everyone is going to systemd because they don't wanna to maintain their own init stuff. Makes sense.

                                However, this push is going through while systemd is far from perfect, arguably worse than system v init style.

                                It's bad enough that people are willing to support their own forks.

                                In a more or less funny way, it's actually similar to pulseaudio. Me too, I liked the pulseaudio features and decided to close my eyes on the inherent design issues. Few years later, I'm using pure alsa, because pulseaudio design issues and complexity just annoy the hell out of me.

                                Systemd has design issues. The log handling. The abstraction of all the things. Binaryzation of all the things. This is far from KISS.
                                Yes, having logs that you can search in less than linear time, and being certain of things beyond the timestamp is to terrible.

                                SystemD still parses text files to get it's configuration data, and in addition promises to standardize the file location of certain system configuration file.

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