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OpenSUSE: Not Everyone Likes SystemD

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  • #21
    I read about the advantages and design about systemd and found most of the big lines good and some even necessary.
    (Especially the automatically determined boot order.)
    There are a lot of people who just hate any change because it requires doing things different.
    Not better or worse just different from habits.

    The binary logs do seem a bad design decision and hopefully it can be changed.


    @Ericg
    The distribution you tried was in a state of being made. It was a snapshot, preview.
    That it is unstable really means that it can fail.

    Maybe if you were to realize that software is something that needs to be engineered and not just put together you could put things in perspective.
    In pre-alpha and alpha stage, that software crashes and fails is perfectly normal!

    Not that I'm a fan of letting things fail or change because of change.

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    • #22
      Wow... a change and not everybody is happy? It's the first time I heard about such thing happening ;-)

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      • #23
        Originally posted by birdie View Post
        It's really frightening that Open Source aficionados say that the kernel, init system, X.org or desktop environment can become unusable/unbootable/broken.
        It's really frightening that you can't understand the difference of something in development as opposed to something stable. Anything which is under development can become unstable, doesn't matter if it's Windows or Linux, which is why you are urged to use stable release versions of everything if you want a stable system. No one is forcing you to use alphas and betas and if you do you had damn well better understand what it means, that it can be buggy and you are the guinea-pig.

        And no distro is being 'forced' to switch to systemd anymore than anyone was forced to use pulseaudio, your attacks on Lennart Poettering shows that this is some irrational hatred as none of your other arguments make any sense either.

        But don't worry, there will be other like you who wants to stick to sysvinit and will maintain distros and/or packages which enables this. Most distributions as we can see are already transitioning towards systemd, for the simple reason that they find systemd has lots of advantages, no one is holding a gun to their head.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
          It's really frightening that you can't understand the difference of something in development as opposed to something stable. Anything which is under development can become unstable, doesn't matter if it's Windows or Linux, which is why you are urged to use stable release versions of everything if you want a stable system. No one is forcing you to use alphas and betas and if you do you had damn well better understand what it means, that it can be buggy and you are the guinea-pig.

          And no distro is being 'forced' to switch to systemd anymore than anyone was forced to use pulseaudio, your attacks on Lennart Poettering shows that this is some irrational hatred as none of your other arguments make any sense either.

          But don't worry, there will be other like you who wants to stick to sysvinit and will maintain distros and/or packages which enables this. Most distributions as we can see are already transitioning towards systemd, for the simple reason that they find systemd has lots of advantages, no one is holding a gun to their head.
          It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.

          Distros are indeed forced, as I've already mentioned: user space applications become dependent on systemd.

          There's no way we'll be able to stick to SysVintit as in two three years the only way to run Linux without systemd will be to use terribly outdated software components.

          Best of luck,

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          • #25
            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.
            But that's the thing: it isn't released publicly. The development is just open, you access anything but there is currently no publicly released fedora 18 version. The development is decentralized, you can't expect the everything works all the time during the development.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by birdie View Post
              It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.

              Distros are indeed forced, as I've already mentioned: user space applications become dependent on systemd.

              There's no way we'll be able to stick to SysVintit as in two three years the only way to run Linux without systemd will be to use terribly outdated software components.

              Best of luck,

              Yea, like wpoely86 said, it's not a release. It's a nightly build. You can't have it unreleased - every change is released automatically. Also, yes, the term "gamma version" is in fact valid, it's a synonym for a release candidate. And the releases, that are actually releases and not nightly builds, do start, unless there is a problem in the hardware or existing software.

              And no, they are not forced. They could use patches for it, if they really wanted. It would be a lot of work, but it's possible.

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              • #27
                Please, stop answering birdie, he's just a troll

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by birdie View Post
                  It's really frightening that Open Source aficionados say that the kernel, init system, X.org or desktop environment can become unusable/unbootable/broken.

                  I have no words to describe how insane that statement sounds. Or maybe you, people, don't care about Linux as a real replacement for Windows or Mac OS? It surely looks so.

                  "It can break, it's by design, Linux is alpha quality software."
                  No, the kernel, init (whether its upstart/sysV/systemd), X.org and DE's should never be unusable or unbootable / broken for a stable release. During development though? I say break it as much as you want. (Didnt the intel driver from git-master break not even a few days ago? wouldnt build correctly because someone forgot something stupid?)

                  It wouldn't surprise me if Fedora-Rawhide has git-master pulls of certain packages, maybe even systemd. But no one expects Fedora 18 to be in 100% usable state 24/7 until after its been released as stable. Again, its not stable yet. Its pre-alpha. Things. Will. Break. Thats the risk you take by running pre-alpha software.

                  You want stability you run Debian/RHEL/Ubuntu LTS, or you run Arch/Gentoo but you DONT update them. Just get them to a stable spot and dont touch them.

                  You want more cutting edge? You know how to handle things when they crash and maybe even expect them to crash sometimes? Thats where Gentoo/Arch (with updates) Debian Sid/Experimental and Fedora-Rawhide come in.

                  Software breaks during development, it happens. The important thing is if its stable once its been tagged for release.

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                  • #29
                    Someone else recalled the move to PulseAudio, and yes, there was some pain during its adoption. People also moaned about OSS to Alsa. People moaned about kernel 2.4 to 2.6, 2.6 to 3.0.

                    The reality is there are too many distros, and too many variants of each mainstream distro, and this dilutes efforts and testing work, with a lot of duplication of work. There are too many egos, too many opinions, but worst of all too many egos with opinions without the talent or time to make good on their suggestions and promises so they simply sit on the sidelines and criticised.


                    So, to all those who want to stay with the past, I want to ask this: when was the last time you contributed?
                    And I don't mean downloaded and ISO and booted it, I mean things like:
                    * install a beta and provided feedback
                    * submit a bug report for a release
                    * write or correct some documentation - even contribute to a wiki page

                    If you haven't done any of the above except to complain from the side lines, I suggest you go and buy a Mac and go harass the geniuses in the Apple store when your computer doesn't pander to your every whim and the ghost of Steve Jobs doesn't visit you in your dreams to provide technical support.


                    I've been running opensuse 12.1 + Tumbleweed. I have been through pain whilst systemd crept in, and I do feel that there was an element of the developers forcing it into alpha then beta and now release whilst still rough round the edge, and this is due I think to the fact that it's such a radical change that relatively few people would have tried it out unless it was pushed onto them. I've discovered problems and participated in bug reports. I've been on the suse forums and asked and answered questions.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      what he thinks is right is the only way to go and you can go f*ck yourself if you want to use your computer differently
                      ... as opposed to the anti-systemd/PulseAudio crowd, who are always receptive to new ideas and different opinions, meek, and polite.

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