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OpenSUSE: Not Everyone Likes SystemD

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teho View Post
    I must wonder why it seems that almost all people that are against systemd are uncivilised lunatics. Just earlier today I was reading a topic on Arch Bang forums... I thought these people can't be for real. But hey, Phoronix doesn't disappoint either: useless bolding, use of exclamation marks and bad language on the first page.
    Thank G-d you are Holier than thou!

    I bow before your humbleness. That's the western way of debate, people are invested, that's not like Japanesey 'debates' where it seems no one disagrees, and thus everyone is happy cuddling themselves. It's even stronger in the FOSS community since people just do whatever, hierarchy is commit access, everyone is free to work the way they want, and most people want to keep it that way.

    So it's not even close to an "us vs them" mentality, it's just plain stupid to try and force things since the sole principle of FOSS is that people's own effort is based on choice. This mentality that you can force people to be happy is pure fantasy, just like forcing systemd or really, anything! Your argument is as flawed as your logic, cuddle&be_happy would be a pretty sight but it is, objectively, unreal. We can't solve problems with love and Thai massages, and specially in a would-be free environment the most important freedom is always freedom to dissent.

    But hey! I am sure it's being taken way for our own good, so it's cool huh?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Teho View Post
      I must wonder why it seems that almost all people that are against systemd are uncivilised lunatics.
      It doesn't seem. They are. I don't think i've seen anyone even try to raise an argument on the technical side of things.

      BTW my two favorite arguments are: "It was designed by Lennart" and "Its not the unix way" And i seriously can't decide which is the most stupid.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by birdie View Post
        And BTW, systemd itself can leave your system unbootable (!!) - go ask Fedora 18 testers - they will surely demonstrate to you their anger.

        A technical reason why systemd sucks big time?

        Try to boot your system the old init = /bin/bash way, you won't be able to do anything with it, as udev was replaced with systemd and systemd cannot run when it's not a system init process.

        That's called broken by design.
        systemd doesn't replace udev as such. udev has become part of systemd but it can still be used standalone. When I build udev on Gentoo, it unpacks the sources from the systemd tarball. I have often booted with init=/bin/bash but even I'm not sure how you start udev manually. It doesn't matter these days because now we have devtmpfs to populate /dev early in the boot process.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chewi View Post
          systemd doesn't replace udev as such. udev has become part of systemd but it can still be used standalone. When I build udev on Gentoo, it unpacks the sources from the systemd tarball. I have often booted with init=/bin/bash but even I'm not sure how you start udev manually. It doesn't matter these days because now we have devtmpfs to populate /dev early in the boot process.
          Sorry, it has already replaced udev in Fedora 18. In Fedora 18 there's NO udevd binary (at least I couldn't find it - and if it's located in /usr/libexec - that's yet another lame design decision - it's *not* a helper, it's an independent system daemon).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ericg View Post
            Fedora 18 hasn't even hit Alpha yet... You're running essentially running Fedora-Rawhide until the package-freeze hits, which gets updates as quickly as ArchLinux-testing or Debian-Experimental. Your system WILL break. Systemd WILL have bugs that didnt come up. There WILL be system-breaking package conflicts. You should not TOUCH Fedora-Rawhide on anything except a dedicated testing machine or a Virtual Machine.

            I'm not saying systemd is perfect, I ran F17 when it first came out and there were problems. I had systemd randomly breaking on boot for one reason or another. That being said, I moved to Arch for awhile, also used systemd there, and had no problems so I assumed that updates to systemd were fixing the bugs I was hitting, and thats apparently true because I've been running F17 on my desktop/server for a month or so now and everything's been running perfectly fine.
            I have tested numerous alphas and betas of Windows XP, Vista and Windows 7 since XP was called Windows Neptune and believe me or not, it has always booted successfully.

            It's really frightening that Open Source aficionados say that the kernel, init system, X.org or desktop environment can become unusable/unbootable/broken.

            I have no words to describe how insane that statement sounds. Or maybe you, people, don't care about Linux as a real replacement for Windows or Mac OS? It surely looks so.

            "It can break, it's by design, Linux is alpha quality software."

            Wow, wow, wow. I'm gone and disappeared in disbelief.
            Last edited by birdie; 09-10-2012, 01:59 PM.

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            • #21
              I read about the advantages and design about systemd and found most of the big lines good and some even necessary.
              (Especially the automatically determined boot order.)
              There are a lot of people who just hate any change because it requires doing things different.
              Not better or worse just different from habits.

              The binary logs do seem a bad design decision and hopefully it can be changed.


              @Ericg
              The distribution you tried was in a state of being made. It was a snapshot, preview.
              That it is unstable really means that it can fail.

              Maybe if you were to realize that software is something that needs to be engineered and not just put together you could put things in perspective.
              In pre-alpha and alpha stage, that software crashes and fails is perfectly normal!

              Not that I'm a fan of letting things fail or change because of change.

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              • #22
                Wow... a change and not everybody is happy? It's the first time I heard about such thing happening ;-)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by birdie View Post
                  It's really frightening that Open Source aficionados say that the kernel, init system, X.org or desktop environment can become unusable/unbootable/broken.
                  It's really frightening that you can't understand the difference of something in development as opposed to something stable. Anything which is under development can become unstable, doesn't matter if it's Windows or Linux, which is why you are urged to use stable release versions of everything if you want a stable system. No one is forcing you to use alphas and betas and if you do you had damn well better understand what it means, that it can be buggy and you are the guinea-pig.

                  And no distro is being 'forced' to switch to systemd anymore than anyone was forced to use pulseaudio, your attacks on Lennart Poettering shows that this is some irrational hatred as none of your other arguments make any sense either.

                  But don't worry, there will be other like you who wants to stick to sysvinit and will maintain distros and/or packages which enables this. Most distributions as we can see are already transitioning towards systemd, for the simple reason that they find systemd has lots of advantages, no one is holding a gun to their head.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                    It's really frightening that you can't understand the difference of something in development as opposed to something stable. Anything which is under development can become unstable, doesn't matter if it's Windows or Linux, which is why you are urged to use stable release versions of everything if you want a stable system. No one is forcing you to use alphas and betas and if you do you had damn well better understand what it means, that it can be buggy and you are the guinea-pig.

                    And no distro is being 'forced' to switch to systemd anymore than anyone was forced to use pulseaudio, your attacks on Lennart Poettering shows that this is some irrational hatred as none of your other arguments make any sense either.

                    But don't worry, there will be other like you who wants to stick to sysvinit and will maintain distros and/or packages which enables this. Most distributions as we can see are already transitioning towards systemd, for the simple reason that they find systemd has lots of advantages, no one is holding a gun to their head.
                    It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.

                    Distros are indeed forced, as I've already mentioned: user space applications become dependent on systemd.

                    There's no way we'll be able to stick to SysVintit as in two three years the only way to run Linux without systemd will be to use terribly outdated software components.

                    Best of luck,

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.
                      But that's the thing: it isn't released publicly. The development is just open, you access anything but there is currently no publicly released fedora 18 version. The development is decentralized, you can't expect the everything works all the time during the development.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by birdie View Post
                        It surely looks like you are not a software engineer/developer - publicly released software is expected to work (it can crash, be buggy as hell, not all features can be implemented, etc. but it should at least start). As simple as that. No matter if it's alpha/beta/gamma (I'm joking)/release candidate/etc.

                        Distros are indeed forced, as I've already mentioned: user space applications become dependent on systemd.

                        There's no way we'll be able to stick to SysVintit as in two three years the only way to run Linux without systemd will be to use terribly outdated software components.

                        Best of luck,

                        Yea, like wpoely86 said, it's not a release. It's a nightly build. You can't have it unreleased - every change is released automatically. Also, yes, the term "gamma version" is in fact valid, it's a synonym for a release candidate. And the releases, that are actually releases and not nightly builds, do start, unless there is a problem in the hardware or existing software.

                        And no, they are not forced. They could use patches for it, if they really wanted. It would be a lot of work, but it's possible.

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                        • #27
                          Please, stop answering birdie, he's just a troll

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by birdie View Post
                            It's really frightening that Open Source aficionados say that the kernel, init system, X.org or desktop environment can become unusable/unbootable/broken.

                            I have no words to describe how insane that statement sounds. Or maybe you, people, don't care about Linux as a real replacement for Windows or Mac OS? It surely looks so.

                            "It can break, it's by design, Linux is alpha quality software."
                            No, the kernel, init (whether its upstart/sysV/systemd), X.org and DE's should never be unusable or unbootable / broken for a stable release. During development though? I say break it as much as you want. (Didnt the intel driver from git-master break not even a few days ago? wouldnt build correctly because someone forgot something stupid?)

                            It wouldn't surprise me if Fedora-Rawhide has git-master pulls of certain packages, maybe even systemd. But no one expects Fedora 18 to be in 100% usable state 24/7 until after its been released as stable. Again, its not stable yet. Its pre-alpha. Things. Will. Break. Thats the risk you take by running pre-alpha software.

                            You want stability you run Debian/RHEL/Ubuntu LTS, or you run Arch/Gentoo but you DONT update them. Just get them to a stable spot and dont touch them.

                            You want more cutting edge? You know how to handle things when they crash and maybe even expect them to crash sometimes? Thats where Gentoo/Arch (with updates) Debian Sid/Experimental and Fedora-Rawhide come in.

                            Software breaks during development, it happens. The important thing is if its stable once its been tagged for release.

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                            • #29
                              Someone else recalled the move to PulseAudio, and yes, there was some pain during its adoption. People also moaned about OSS to Alsa. People moaned about kernel 2.4 to 2.6, 2.6 to 3.0.

                              The reality is there are too many distros, and too many variants of each mainstream distro, and this dilutes efforts and testing work, with a lot of duplication of work. There are too many egos, too many opinions, but worst of all too many egos with opinions without the talent or time to make good on their suggestions and promises so they simply sit on the sidelines and criticised.


                              So, to all those who want to stay with the past, I want to ask this: when was the last time you contributed?
                              And I don't mean downloaded and ISO and booted it, I mean things like:
                              * install a beta and provided feedback
                              * submit a bug report for a release
                              * write or correct some documentation - even contribute to a wiki page

                              If you haven't done any of the above except to complain from the side lines, I suggest you go and buy a Mac and go harass the geniuses in the Apple store when your computer doesn't pander to your every whim and the ghost of Steve Jobs doesn't visit you in your dreams to provide technical support.


                              I've been running opensuse 12.1 + Tumbleweed. I have been through pain whilst systemd crept in, and I do feel that there was an element of the developers forcing it into alpha then beta and now release whilst still rough round the edge, and this is due I think to the fact that it's such a radical change that relatively few people would have tried it out unless it was pushed onto them. I've discovered problems and participated in bug reports. I've been on the suse forums and asked and answered questions.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by birdie View Post
                                what he thinks is right is the only way to go and you can go f*ck yourself if you want to use your computer differently
                                ... as opposed to the anti-systemd/PulseAudio crowd, who are always receptive to new ideas and different opinions, meek, and polite.

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