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  • #16
    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    If Wayland works that way, it should be supported. Period. If you don't like it, don't use Wayland.
    Of course I don't use Wayland. It's currently not usable at all. I may use Wayland in the future but until then nothing is set in stone.

    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    Vista with Aero, I guess. Many programs are able to display their own stuff alongside the decorations. Firefox for example. Look at the "Nightly" button at the top left; it's embedded within the title bar:

    http://microsoft-info.com/wp-content...firefox-15.jpg

    Linux WMs can't do that.
    Sure they can. That is one possible use case for dbus-menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bm7Q6_SH4 But applications still don't handle the window decorations on their own. Why should a GTK app have a different title bar than a Qt application? Why should a media player have a different title bar than a web browser? Why should one application decide that the window close button is on the right side of the title bar, while another application decides that the left side is better?
    I like that I can do whatever I want with title bars and its window buttons and all applications conform to KWin's central decoration config.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by mark45 View Post
      Does QT 5 support window decorations under Wayland?
      Actually, the qtwayland plugin does support really minimal client side window decorations on Wayland right now. They aren't clickable, or interactive yet... (but I did notice an intereting recent commit... )

      Comment


      • #18
        [QUOTE=Awesomeness;284388]Sure they can. That is one possible use case for dbus-menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bm7Q6_SH4
        I don't see how this is the same. It's not. On Windows you have your own button, complete with control over the graphics and layout.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by uid313 View Post
          Does Microsoft Windows use client-side decorations?
          Which version?
          ... since windows 98.

          http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...=vs.85%29.aspx
          http://www.ucancode.net/CPP_Library_...vc-article.htm

          ciao nub

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
            But applications still don't handle the window decorations on their own. Why should a GTK app have a different title bar than a Qt application? Why should a media player have a different title bar than a web browser? Why should one application decide that the window close button is on the right side of the title bar, while another application decides that the left side is better?
            I like that I can do whatever I want with title bars and its window buttons and all applications conform to KWin's central decoration config.
            Well then you probably shouldn't also ever bother about using Wayland, as this design decision will not change =)

            Why should applications trick me into thinking they look the same with same titlebars, when their window is rendered completely differently from each other (Qt, GTK, EFL)?
            Why should each use different schemes for "yes" "no", "apply" "cancel" buttons?
            Why should every application use their own font rendering system? Their own drawing primitives?
            Having similar titlebars isn't really going to make the actual content look much more similar. If at all, it only makes it look even more out of place.

            Comment


            • #21
              And does Windows still use client-side decoration in Windows 7?
              Is client-side decoration default or optional?
              Does Windows support server/wm-side decorations?
              Which is default?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                Why should each use different schemes for "yes" "no", "apply" "cancel" buttons?
                Why should every application use their own font rendering system? Their own drawing primitives?
                You’re right, of course… Qt should look and behave exactly like Gtk. Making apps responsible for drawing their title bar isn’t going to make it any easier.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                  And does Windows still use client-side decoration in Windows 7?
                  I don’t understand… Is Windows a good example of how to make things? Do we want to clone Windows?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by stqn View Post
                    You’re right, of course… Qt should look and behave exactly like Gtk. Making apps responsible for drawing their title bar isn’t going to make it any easier.
                    It's not meant to make it easier, it's meant to make fucking roundtrip lag disappear.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by stqn View Post
                      I don’t understand… Is Windows a good example of how to make things? Do we want to clone Windows?
                      No, absolutely not.
                      But I do think that the developers of Wayland (or any other similar system) should know how others designed and architectured their solution and why they chose that particular design.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                        Sure they can. That is one possible use case for dbus-menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bm7Q6_SH4
                        I don't see how this is the same. It's not. On Windows you have your own button, complete with control over the graphics and layout.
                        You quote out of contextOn purpose? I never wrote that it's the same. The original claim was that Linux WMs can't have menu buttons in the title bar and I disproved you.
                        The look and feel of that button should be defined by the WM.

                        Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                        Well then you probably shouldn't also ever bother about using Wayland, as this design decision will not change =)
                        And who are you to claim authority over the all future development decisions?

                        Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                        Why should applications trick me into thinking they look the same with same titlebars, when their window is rendered completely differently from each other (Qt, GTK, EFL)?
                        If you can be tricked by a title bar how the application itself looks, you'd be the biggest retard the world has ever seen.
                        The toolkit even has nothing to do with this. If each application can decide how title bars look and feel, it'll lead do inconsistencies even within applications using a shared toolkit.

                        Considering that as part of Canonical's usability vision they need to have control over all title bars. I doubt they'll be willing to let application developers fuck up Unity's look and feel. Canonical can be surprisingly persuasive and even willing to actually contribute code when it comes to that. It was Canonical who wrote and contributed the code to Qt to export application menus via dbus to make Qt applications integrate into Unity.

                        Well, I'm curious how it'll actually end up. I have the gut feeling that in the end applications won't get complete control over the window decoration, despite Wayland's design intentions.

                        Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                        It's not meant to make it easier, it's meant to make fucking roundtrip lag disappear.
                        No idea which lag you are referring to.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Have you ever ran Chrome on Linux? Do you actually know that applications can bypass window manager decorations right now on X? The window decorations cannot be enforced.

                          So seriously, what are you talking about? On Wayland, window decorations will be standardized by your DE. All KDE apps will still look the same. All Gnome apps will look the same. Unless an app doesn't want to.

                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          The look and feel of that button should be defined by the WM.
                          And who are you to claim authority over who should define the look and feel of buttons?
                          Last edited by RealNC; 09-02-2012, 05:16 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            And who are you to claim authority over the all future development decisions?
                            What the hell are you talking about? If you were familiar with Wayland in even the slightest,
                            you'd have long known that this is a standpoint Khristian has made clear he won't leave.
                            It's not going to happen, period.

                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            If you can be tricked by a title bar how the application itself looks, you'd be the biggest retard the world has ever seen.
                            The toolkit even has nothing to do with this. If each application can decide how title bars look and feel, it'll lead do inconsistencies even within applications using a shared toolkit.
                            I'm talking from the viewpoint of a hypothetical use you idiot. I'm indirectly quoting Khristian here,
                            but to have a consistent experience it doesn't really help to have a tiny scratch at the top look the same across all apps,
                            while the titlebar and actual content mismatch in style. Consistency within app > fake consistency across apps.

                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            Considering that as part of Canonical's usability vision they need to have control over all title bars. I doubt they'll be willing to let application developers fuck up Unity's look and feel. Canonical can be surprisingly persuasive and even willing to actually contribute code when it comes to that. It was Canonical who wrote and contributed the code to Qt to export application menus via dbus to make Qt applications integrate into Unity.
                            Don't know what they'll do, but I don't think they'd be stupid enough to fork Wayland over this issue.
                            Actually, it's not going to be an issue at all. If you look at how native theme engines can make either Qt look almost the same as GTK and vise versa,
                            there might not even be a need for a shared library with deco drawing routines / unified theming.

                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            Well, I'm curious how it'll actually end up. I have the gut feeling that in the end applications won't get complete control over the window decoration, despite Wayland's design intentions.
                            Project leader's words > your gut feeling.

                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            No idea which lag you are referring to.
                            Synchronization issues due to X, the WM and the client each having to wait for each other.
                            I'm not really good at explaining it, but I've sure experienced it with apps like Inkscape.
                            You should consult Wayland resources for info on that.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              Have you ever ran Chrome on Linux?
                              Yes, it's horrible.

                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              Do you actually know that applications can bypass window manager decorations right now on X?
                              Yes.

                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              And who are you to claim authority over who should define the look and feel of buttons?
                              Someone with some experience in usability. Unlike you, obviously. No surprise you have the reputation of being a troll.

                              My views on usability and consistency on that matter are backed up by John Siracusa from ArsTechnica who repeatedly criticized similar instances under OSX (iTunes’ vertical window buttons, “natural” look of Address Book, etc.).

                              Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                              What the hell are you talking about? If you were familiar with Wayland in even the slightest,
                              you'd have long known that this is a standpoint Khristian has made clear he won't leave.
                              It's not going to happen, period.
                              Despite being hosted on fdo, Wayland is mostly an Intel project. If Intel orders him to implement something else (or at least an alternative route), it'll happen.


                              Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                              Consistency within app > fake consistency across apps. […] Actually, it's not going to be an issue at all. If you look at how native theme engines can make either Qt look almost the same as GTK and vise versa
                              It's not fake consistency, it's one brick to get consistency throughout the system.
                              What you simply fail to understand is that it's not about the look alone, even though I repeatedly wrote “look and feel”.

                              Once users get GNOME applications into their hand which they cannon minimize under other DEs (Plasma Desktop or whatever) because minimizing is not something that fits into GNOME Shell’s workflow, a shitstorm will break out.


                              Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                              Project leader's words > your gut feeling.
                              Linus Torvalds once said that in-kernel, non-modular drivers are the way to go. We have kernel modules now.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You didn't answer the question. If applications can already disable WM decorations, then what's your problem?

                                Answer that please, instead of talking around it and trying to sneak out, Mr. Usability Authority.

                                Comment

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