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  • #16
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    Elanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.
    Their integration with KDE is bad and most of their applications just assume you use GNOME.

    that's the major reason I won't touch it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
      Why are you building the same strawmens over and over. You ask: give a case of Mono to have advantages, but you never accept one! And given just one advantage is enough to prove its existance!
      Some paint like program isn't so interesting, don't you think? It doesn't show advantage, because there are many such applications written in different languages. Try to compare mono applications to entire KDE and Gnome stack and it can be said mono apps doesn't even exist on Linux. Mono had it chance, because it was shipped with Ubuntu, but Canonical decided to drop it from some reason. There are few things why I am against mono, but the most important one it never prove to be better than current stack on Linux. Theory must be proven if mono wants to become meaningful. Too bad .Net nearly doesn't even exist on Windows if we're talking about serious (desktop) things. 99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net

      There are a lot of cases where Mono was and is still used, from (smart)phones to servers, and on the way includes the Linux desktop.This is why C# is higher rated than C++ in TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html (as of time of writing).
      I'm talking about desktops and not about mobiles or servers. Java is heavily used on mobiles and servers, but it also nearly doesn't exists when comes to desktop applications.

      And I know, is about proprietary folks that are taking here, right?
      I work(ed) in OSS, with .Net and yes, is possible. Is not as major project that you may think, but it give the very same thing you asked for: CAD software. It does not work for Linux and I know that no one worked hard enough to port it for Linux, but the core code could theoretically once work on Linux.
      In comparison, there are a lot of reasons why a C# platform would bring advantages, you may heard about them, one of them is the GC. You may like Java more, and is fine about it. You may like type inference (yes, I know is a part of C++ 11), reflection, and so on. And yes, maybe the revision C++ 2021 would bring all these features in C++, and you will wait 5 more years to be supported by all mainstream compilers before writing code with Linq.
      TIOBE index proves that the 6th platform is an interpreter (PHP), after that a low end compiler (Visual Basic), then JavaScript, then Python.
      The combined percents of users of first 10 languages, comparing managed (with a virtual machine or a runtime, different than libStdC++ or native) against native ones, you will see that managed languages are more used (by a small margin) in todays software.
      C# as language, after Java is the second most popular language using a virtual machine, doesn't seem to you that it is used almost everywhere, or at least is fairly useful for normal people?
      If this will be proven by reality and thanks to c# Windows applications will be ported to Linux it will have a big impact on my opinion. I have no reasons to not believe you, but I didn't see the results yet. In conclusion it's not that I'm always against mono, but as far my experience with mono projects and their forks (which was better) didn't convince me. If mono brings many advantages companies like Red Hat should give it a try someday. I must admit I like discussing with you, because you're sane.
      Last edited by kraftman; 03-24-2012, 04:55 AM.

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      • #18
        "Some paint like program isn't so interesting, don't you think?"
        - if you mean about Pinta here, I'm sure that as usable pictures processing program for human beings, I don't know any equivalent of these features in any Linux application that is portable too (so I can get a picture edited in Linux and retouch it once again at work with Windows). Pinta is like a low end Gimp, with usability of Paint (meaning that most people can grasp it).
        "Try to compare mono applications to entire KDE and Gnome stack"
        - I can replace Mono with any word you would like, it can be: SQL, KDE's Plasma and its plasmoids, GtkMM (as I don't know so many GtkMM applications), XUL, Python, Pascal, Php, Java, JavaScript, or maybe Objective-C and all will fail on this criteria, isn't so? Should we ditch them all together?
        "Too bad .Net nearly doesn't even exist on Windows if we're talking about serious (desktop) things"
        - did you looked in the MS Office stack? Is it MUCH easier to write an office plugin for Office 2010 with .Net (as is 32/64 bit independent) than with C++. In fact a lot of Office, Visual Studio is written in .Net. The WAY to customize the next version of VS is to use MEF 2.0 which is a .Net framework. The same happens about Windows services, you write much shorter code to work with them. In real code I know a lot of old codebases which use C++.Net to call C# web services, and use C++ to maintain the old codebase (which you cannot throw it out).
        "99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
        " - but this can happen for a lot of reasons, including like licensing already made engines, but a lot of those game engines have a lot of tooling made in .Net/Java/Python (like this screenshot of Neverwinter Nights 2 editor bundled in its DVD). Also some of popular somewhat demanding games today (i.e. Magika, Minecraft) have some VM based code (which is not server side). In fact there was from time to time game engines cores that were written in Java (IL-2 Sturmovik from 2001 was written in big parts in Java, game which was highly praised, or XPand Rally have the SDK for customizing the game using Java, I don't know if the game had written 5% or 25% in Java, but proves that Java can be used in games, so .Net can be used too) or in .Net (Sims 3 scripting).
        Also, even Mono/.Net would not be capable at all to make games, that would simply make it to not write AAA games. This doesn't make it undesirable to not write desktop applications, or to not be on Linux. I never sow a Bash-based 3D game, and I'm sure that I will not see any of them soon, but it doesn't make it to not exist on Linux, right?
        "If mono brings many advantages companies like Red Hat should give it a try someday."
        - in fact they give it a try, it is in official repository of Fedora. Tomboy was a part of Fedora until GNote appeared. But not only Mono, but a lot of the tooling to make Mono applications. Is not by default on Fedora CD, but certainly Mono is not a panaceea. Is better than MP3 format support, in comparison, that you have to register to separate repositories.
        At the end if you mean about RHEL, and RedHat as a corporation, I think they are not necessarily against Mono, but they are a big supporter of virtualization and Java applications stacks (because they own JBoss), and I am aware of Java's stack and you have a lot of equivalents in Java world of the .Net classes (some historically were appeared in Java first later made into .Net, like NUnit, Ant build system).
        At the end I know companies that they use .Net (or Java for that matter, because 5 years in the past had the same criticism) for simplifying the deploying or simpler automation and working environment. Do you want Unicode? Which Unicode format you want to use? UTF-8? UTF-16? Java/.Net/Mono handle everything for you. Do you want type-checked build automation, most likely you would want to use Ant (or Nant). Is easy to make an XML that you can validate upfront that some build issues would not appear because a person mistype a script line.
        Last edited by ciplogic; 03-24-2012, 12:01 PM. Reason: Fixed link, using QUOTE tag

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
          99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
          I forgot to answer about desktop applications, which are not games
          There are a lot of .Net professional grade desktop applications. Or Java ones. Most of the mainstream applications that you know them from 90's are written in C/C++ because is hard to remove the old code without a replacement. But Eclipse RCP (Rich Client Platform) is used in a lot of "professional grade applications". Other may use Adobe AIR (like the HTC Sync I use to work with my mobile phone, and yes, it depend on .Net), or may use to one platform Qt and on other .Net (I'm talking about AMD's Catalyst Control Panel). It was already told on other post on a forum, most major CAD players offer .Net SDKs (AutoCAD, SolidWorks, Rhino), 3D modellers (3dsmax) - a field I was related with. I know other software packages that use for example Java because it uses better Database connectors, even they are C++ SDKs (Embarcadero's database management tools), or they use just for a sub-feature. I recommend to see about Microsoft tooling (which is using .Net in most of cases, and embeds the C++ core in an embedded window, like Expression Blend) or IBM/Oracle tooling (which is Java based, like Eclipse/NetBeans Rich Client Platforms, for example: IBM's Lotus Symphony was Eclipse based).
          Why 99%? And if you mean that the applications have to be fully written in C# (or any .Net based language), I think no developer today uses one language (excluding is a very old codebase). People use HTML5/Javascript/CSS, or Java/JavaFX/SQL/Xml or C#/Xaml/Xml/SQL most of the times.
          In software like time critical software, C++ may be desirable, and I know people using Java in time-critical software (just if given the opportunity to warmup and tune the VM). London Stock Exchange is written in Java (as replaced .Net) but they did not went to C++. Why? If you think that because the database code is written in C++, so this is why they get this huge speedup, they use Oracle, and the time-consuming part of querying of Oracle's DBs is written in Java too.
          To say that 99% are written in native code, is bogus. Sometimes you wouldn't want that, you don't want to have big binary for some small code that do update your repository, when is clearly that the slow part of the operation may be the internet connection. Most big applications I know, they combine frameworks, so they would want to see which framework solve what and if is easier to use C# way, the developer would pick the C#, if is the C++ way, would pick C++, and so on. Most of Disk Defragmenters today are made in Delphi (bleah, I dislike the language and the IDE) or C#. You may not care about this, but it is certainly that the disk is the 50 times slower than any C# code, so speeding the C# code rewriting it in C++, would give to you for a 10x speedup supposedly that you may achieve with C++, a per application 1-2 % speedup (even less!).
          WPF applications are fairly fast (given are well written, after they do start up) as they use technologies that appeared accessible in C++ (Direct2D like) later with Windows 7. I recommend to try (if you use Windows) these tools that are free. Try them and say if you notice a too slow speed. I do know that they have some C++ code in the back, but they are mainly written in C# and I don't feel it this (excluding I would use XP and will ask me to install .Net to finish the installer).
          Last edited by ciplogic; 03-24-2012, 12:56 PM.

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          • #20
            Mono?

            well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
              well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...
              I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
              If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares? A toolkit on top of X? Who cares? XTerm is a living proof that we could survive without any fancy graphics. X- we can draw directly using a framebuffer, who cares? Classes to separate real and big codebases? We can simulate in C, who cares about C++? Xml, who cares? Ini files and binary ones are both faster, so who cares about validating Xmls?
              And so on, are too many areas that we take them today for granted and I think we should be really respectful for anything that is given more or less for free (as in beer at least) as a lot of these things are made with a lot of hard work. I'm sure that you are using a browser so advanced that it can likely make some parts of the program to run close to C performance because they have a Just-In-Time compiler, and you just read a text using sub-pixel hinting and if you can read this forum and you're not using a lynx browser, you can see it with CSS (why someone whould need a themed site, so who care about theming capabilities!?).
              Note: don't troll, is not fun, is not smart

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
                I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
                Yeah, banshee and tomboy are two great 2Mb apps that are worth 500Mb of microsoftie crap.

                Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
                If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares? A toolkit on top of X? Who cares? XTerm is a living proof that we could survive without any fancy graphics. X- we can draw directly using a framebuffer, who cares? Classes to separate real and big codebases? We can simulate in C, who cares about C++? Xml, who cares? Ini files and binary ones are both faster, so who cares about validating Xmls?
                And so on, are too many areas that we take them today for granted and I think we should be really respectful for anything that is given more or less for free (as in beer at least) as a lot of these things are made with a lot of hard work. I'm sure that you are using a browser so advanced that it can likely make some parts of the program to run close to C performance because they have a Just-In-Time compiler, and you just read a text using sub-pixel hinting and if you can read this forum and you're not using a lynx browser, you can see it with CSS (why someone whould need a themed site, so who care about theming capabilities!?).
                Note: don't troll, is not fun, is not smart
                Lol, you mix crap(mono/.net) with space-technology list. Why? Do you really think you can mask the sh!t with sugar?
                Using mono is like building houses on top of sleeping volcano. This isnīt trolling, this is pervertism. And Java owns it in terms of freedom, technology and performance.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                  well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...
                  Lets see, microsoft trolls! Elanthis, Thatguy, Blackstar and apparently ciplogic. Maybe you guys unite and port banshee to android, and mono all-way-long, ... because you need that mono crap for your favourite player sure, sure.

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                  • #24
                    Does this version allows you to watch NBC live videos ?

                    I haven't try to use Mono plugin for sometimes. The last time I tested it,
                    it couldn't play MSNBC.com live games.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                      Applications like 3D modelers, video and sound editors, games, desktop environments. Give me a title written in mono.Net and I'll give you more titles written in C or C++ that are more powerful.
                      There were even a stock exchange running on it, but .net proved to be too slow. I'm not saying it's a useless platform, but I want to know why some consider it's better than C, C++, Qt and what real word advantage it brings? As far I can see there's no advantage, because mono projects are just pet projects: tomboy, some paint like application, f-spot and banshee - there are far better equivalents and there's no interest on Linux in mono projects. There must be some real reasons.
                      CADs are 3D modellers and a lot of CADs are very old codebases, and makes no sense regardless of where Mono/.Net is to rewrite it from an working C/C++ code to a possibly non working yet productive C# code. But this does not mean that most of big software titles offer .Net support to interact with it. Even LibreOffice offers that.
                      If you want to give specifc titles that are better than their C++ equivalents, most of RIA platforms are using a virtual machine on the back: Eclipse, NetBeans, XUL (Mozilla's managed runtime), SilverLight, Flash (Adobe AIR). Secondly: most modern application servers use either a virtual machine (Asp.Net, all Java Application servers), or use an interpreter (PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby).
                      If you read a source like this one, you can find that Microsoft's ASP.Net offered 2.7 ms, against 0.3-0.4 ms per transaction (which seems not so slow for me):
                      The choice of the latter, which has raised quite a few eyebrows in the market, is defended by Lester. He claims that LSE is coming off TradElect not because of the .Net technology itself (although its trading speed is 2.7 milliseconds compared to Linux-based Chi-X’s 0.4 milliseconds), but ‘for more control, less costs, and the ability to build and innovate’.
                      The 90% of the transactions have even less speed, like 0.4 ms (for .Net - ) for 90% of transactions, and 2.7 is the 99% of transactions. (I know because is similar metric in aviation and many real time systems).
                      At the end, the most important is what C# brings, is option. Before existing GNote, there was Tomboy, before existing Tracker, was the Beagle search, before ... was Gnome-Do, and so on. As for myself I run a combination of Java (Eclipse + IntelliJ IDEA) as they are better IDEs (even for C++ codebases) than you may find in any other language, mono and MonoDevelop (mostly Banshee). If I want to script something fast, like downloading a series of pictures and they are stored like: <url>+pic<id>.jpg , I use BooISH, or Bash.
                      And for replacements of C# applications, in OpenSource world, I don't know a replacement of OpenBVE (video). I understand that it could be written in C++, but for that team, they liked C# and offered a game that no one would write in C++ (or at least not at the same quality). Can someone say which is the frame where GC kicked in and make this game unplayable?
                      There are games written in JavaScript as part of Gnome 3 (or parts of Qt's plasmoids, or QML applications) which is slower than Mono is (at least in looping code), and I see it either way a much better option, than to write it in other language that I like it more. Gnome's Shell and Unity 2D (that uses QML which uses itself JavaScript Core part of WebKit), KDE's Plasma use JavaScript. I did not notice anyone arguing of .Net/Mono "fans" that they want to be rewritten in Mono as Mono is faster, lower memory consumer.
                      Last edited by ciplogic; 03-26-2012, 12:23 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
                        I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
                        If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares?
                        If i want to be rational, i can't do that what you are saying.

                        Anyway, Mono & .NET doesn't brings anything new to the table. There's no real advantages using it . There's other fantastic music players to choose from, and none of them use Mono. So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                          ...And Java owns it in terms of freedom, technology and performance.
                          Is Mono that bad!!!??? Anything worst than Java most be just crap and nothing else.
                          Because is funny how a Java app can suck 80% of memory just because the java widgets to buid the GUI. Java is like the mc.donnals of the computing world.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                            So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing
                            That doesn't make anymore it 'useless' than tons of other lanugages/frameworks out there, also 'need' is subjective in this context. That said Mono is certainly technology which have had a hard time finding it's niche, IIRC Novell wanted to compete with Red Hat by being the Microsoft 'approved' Linux distribution and thereby got a patent protection agreement from them which only covered Novell users. Novell had purchased Ximian which developed Mono, an open source implementation of C#/NET which Novell obviously hoped with give them an advantage over Red Hat in the enterprise sector. However this failed as the enterprise was not interested in Mono and neither was the Linux desktop as history shows.

                            Now it seems Miguel and his devs are doing fine having found a niche for Mono with their MonoTouch/MonoDroid application frameworks. I'm happy for this as even though I have no personal interest in Mono there certainly are those out there who does rely on it and if the devs can make money out of Mono it means they can continue to develop Mono as an open source free language.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                              Is Mono that bad!!!??? Anything worst than Java most be just crap and nothing else.
                              Because is funny how a Java app can suck 80% of memory just because the java widgets to buid the GUI. Java is like the mc.donnals of the computing world.
                              You make a lot of logical fallacies. Mono is slower than Java in raw performance, but is faster if you allocate things on stack, it uses less memory, at least than Java.
                              In my task manager I have the following applications:
                              Visual Studio (C++) 323 MB of RAM
                              Borland Delphi Studio (Delphi - Native) 241 MB
                              Firefox (C++) 194 MB
                              IntelliJ IDEA (Java) 191 MB (with a medium project open)
                              MonoDevelop (C#) 54 MB (with a medium project open)

                              Which conclusion would you make out of it? I did not take any.

                              I can make a loop of allocations and I can show that Mono would perform at least 3X faster (with GC, than default C++ new), and as a bonus I don't have to write destructors

                              Anyway, Mono & .NET doesn't brings anything new to the table. There's no real advantages using it . There's other fantastic music players to choose from, and none of them use Mono. So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing
                              Any language that is Turing-Complete (like C onward) bring nothing "to the table" if you take just as raw functionality. "There are other fantastic music players" - there is Banshee too, and I use it, and I don't care if you think that AmaroK or Rythmbox is better, or XMMS2. Banshee was the single player for some time that can manage both video and audio. Only iTunes/Media Center could do in OS X/Windows world.
                              I know many things that C# brings to "the table" that Java also has, but C++ doesn't:
                              - Dependency Injection. Where is used? In MonoDevelop, or Eclipse. There is no standard way to do Dependency Injection, and to do it, you have to use invasive C++ techinques like QT's MOC. Are you aware of a Dependency Injection framework? Enlight me, as I need to be educated.
                              - Easy to use multi-core. Where is used? In Pinta, not in Gimp.
                              - Database connector standardization: JDBC and C# connectors are de-facto connectors if you want to use a database-agnostic code. Did you tried "Gnome-DB"? Or may you say which part of STL permit to you to connect to a database?
                              - a nice to use language with GC:
                              Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
                              And for replacements of C# applications, in OpenSource world, I don't know a replacement of OpenBVE (video). I understand that it could be written in C++, but for that team, they liked C# and offered a game that no one would write in C++ (or at least not at the same quality). Can someone say which is the frame where GC kicked in and make this game unplayable?
                              Last edited by ciplogic; 03-26-2012, 01:28 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                                That doesn't make anymore it 'useless' than tons of other lanugages/frameworks out there, also 'need' is subjective in this context. That said Mono is certainly technology which have had a hard time finding it's niche, IIRC Novell wanted to compete with Red Hat by being the Microsoft 'approved' Linux distribution and thereby got a patent protection agreement from them which only covered Novell users. Novell had purchased Ximian which developed Mono, an open source implementation of C#/NET which Novell obviously hoped with give them an advantage over Red Hat in the enterprise sector. However this failed as the enterprise was not interested in Mono and neither was the Linux desktop as history shows.

                                Now it seems Miguel and his devs are doing fine having found a niche for Mono with their MonoTouch/MonoDroid application frameworks. I'm happy for this as even though I have no personal interest in Mono there certainly are those out there who does rely on it and if the devs can make money out of Mono it means they can continue to develop Mono as an open source free language.
                                Loved it, you're great!

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