The KDE vs. GNOME Schism In Free Software

[BlackStar]

Ok, ok, we get you, ALSA is perfectly fine by itself and PA is useless. Nevermind that dmix is buggy and has higher latency than PA - Fedora, openSUSE, Ubuntu, Mint are wrong to prefer PA. In fact, noone you know uses PA, so why does it even exist?

It's quite an interesting world you are living in.

[ninez]

Ok, ok, we get you, ALSA is perfectly fine by itself and PA is useless. Nevermind that dmix is buggy and has higher latency than PA - Fedora, openSUSE, Ubuntu, Mint are wrong to prefer PA.

Ok, i get you. Trying to put words into my mouth???

1. I said PA is useless to me ~ not *everyone*. furthermore, i said while it has some good ideas/features, i personally find it's design to be shotty (and also convoluted). I also said the work should have been done in ALSA, rather than introducing yet another sound API. As you yourself have pointed out, dmix could use a little bit of love. and as another user pointed out;

Given how ESD and aRts tackled the same problem and failed spectacularly, with their functionality ultimately being added to ALSA to save us the torture, I would not be surprised if the same thing happens with PulseAudio.

that is what should actually happen!

2. So tell me, smartass - where do you see me saying "Fedora, openSUSE, Ubuntu, Mint are wrong to prefer PA. In fact, noone you know uses PA"?!?!?! - oh, that's right - I DIDN'T SAY THAT - YOU DID! It's incredible how you came to that conclusion. You just make shit up as you go - eh dummy?

In fact, noone you know uses PA, so why does it even exist?

PA exists to be a proxy for audio apps. it isn't linux exclusive, wasn't designed *exclusively* for ALSA and was designed with portability in mind. (windows, mobile, *nix systems).

You really need to start using your brain. Read what i actually wrote;

...And in the context of Gnome 3, i think that while PA is easy to disable, which is all fine and dandy. They also should have supported ALSA, in a slightly more integrated way. - i say this, because i know atleast 10-15 people (personally) who do not use PA with Gnome 3. (sure, 10-15 people doesn't sound like much - but those are people i know personally, not random people. if i were to include, everyone i bump into online - that number would be pretty big.)

Where did i say it shouldn't exist because no one i know uses it???? HINT: your making shit up again! - as, i never said that. I was pointing out that Gnome should have integrated ALSA a little better (for users who don't require, or want PA). If you aren't intelligent enough, to be able to understand what i have written - do yourself a favor and just shot the fuck up! REALLY!

It's quite an interesting world you are living in.

You mean the world that you are making up for me, in your pea-sized brain???? making grand assumptions, putting words in my mouth? misreading what i wrote? ...then coming to your own conlcusion based on fallacies, that you're creating on the fly? (yup)

but ya, in a totally different context than you seem to think, it is an exceptionally interesting world that we all live in. thanks

have a great day blacktard!

[bwat47]

I actually agree with most of what you say here - you have actually summed up my point, of ALSA being better for low-latency than PA. Blackstar seems claim the opposite to be true. (which is how the argument began in the first place)

As a long time proaudio user, it's obvious that he is straight up wrong, on that point.

as far as measuring 'epeens' ~ i think you missed the point. And technically speaking, you and i are actually in agreement, PA is not for low-latency, ALSA does a better job. Which is what i have been trying to explain to Blackstar, but he seems to not understand. But even in the case of not requiring low-latency, i personally still don't have a particular use for pulseaudio, i would still be using alsa/jack (obviously jack would have larger frames, in this use case.).

lastly, AFAIK - we didn't 'paint' a 5.1mb install (of PA) as a dealbreaker (it was another user) - i actually said the exact same thing you are saying. disabling PA is not a big deal. it takes 2 seconds.

Yeah I was referencing that guy who posted earlier about pulse having to be installed being unacceptable, but I should have been more specific in my post

[BlackStar]

Ninez, running out of arguments and resorting to personal insults are we? "Oh look, I called you dummy and blacktard, that totally doesn't make me look like a 9 year old and undermine my argument by throwing my last shreds of credibility out of the window!"

But do keep trying, I want to see how much more embarrassing this can get.

[ninez]

Ninez, running out of arguments and resorting to personal insults are we? "Oh look, I called you dummy and blacktard, that totally doesn't make me look like a 9 year old and undermine my argument by throwing my last shreds of credibility out of the window!"

AHAHAHAHA. dude, i called you a dummy and blacktard - because you come across as being quite obtuse, and half-retarded. Sorry if that is inconvenient for you, but i see no reason to not call it as i see it. As far as arguments are concerned - you lost a long time ago, by not addressing multiple inconsistencies;

notice, how you had nothing to say besides the above comment??? (that is embarrasing! for you)

no comment on the fact that i have pointed out that you create fallacies? (of course not, that is true)

putting words in my mouth that i didn't say? (that is embarrassing, pathetic and utterly moronic of you, and also true)

you have no comment on how you have misconstrued and literally made up things, to undermine my position and support your own? (also true)

why not address those problems? --> probably because you're an obtuse little ignorant retard - and that isn't 'resorting to insults'. it's the conclusion that i have come to based on many of your comments, based on the fact that you can't seem to read very well, or simply fail to understand the context of my comments, and was actually written. Then, you just make up shit, and say that is my position and then provide some rebuttal to that shit/position and say you are right. (you know what that is *specifically* called, right????)

What you see as 'resorting to insults' - i see as "calling a spade a spade".

But do keep trying, I want to see how much more embarrassing this can get.

I don't have to make another comment after this, you have failed to address many previous problems in your own perceptions and assumptions, that were TOTALLY incorrect and/or were fabrications. you've also illustrated that you don't know jack shit, and are a dumbass. I guess it has never occurred to you, that i just might be more vulgar with my language than you are, eh? ..and generally speaking, when someone starts putting words in my mouth and being an asshole - I see no problem with not treating them with ZERO respect whatsoever.

later Blacktard

by the way, i will be calling you that from now on. LOL. it's a much better description of you. - I suppose you might be black, but your definitely not a 'star'.

cheerz

[BlackStar]

Ninez, you keep trying to troll but it's just not working. Maddening, isn't it?

Then again, you can't even understand the difference between a netbook and an audio production workstation, so anything else I might say would simply go right over your head.

If you really wish a proper discussion, start by reading up on netbooks, what they are, what hardware they sport and what they are used for; then read up on acceptable latencies for different kinds of workloads, what Steinberg has to say on the topic, you know, actual facts; come back with that, lose the attitude and then we can discuss. Otherwise, do keep trying to troll - I'm sure you have more entertainment to offer.

[ninez]

Ninez, you keep trying to troll but it's just not working. Maddening, isn't it?

You may think i am trolling, but the fact is, until you admit to putting words in my mouth, making up shit and creating fallacies there is no point to this conversation. You're full of shit...and as far as being maddening? -> what are you even talking about, dumb ass?

do you actually think i am upset or something?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL. dude, you couldn't get under my skin, even if you tried your very best - your a total fucking retard.

Then again, you can't even understand the difference between a netbook and an audio production workstation, so anything else I might say would simply go right over your head.

Oh, i completely understand the difference between a netbook and audio workstation - i own both, as well as many other machines. I also purchase PCs for our sales reps(180 reps in total across Canada and the US), at the company, that i am employed by.

So, I have a question for you - how many PCs have you purchased in the last 5yrs??? I'm guessing, that i work with more hardware than you on a daily basis, and that i own more hardware than you too. I also can tell that i have way more experience, as far as audio production is concerned, than you do - even though your trying to say that i don't know what i am talking about. - which is laughable...anyone can read your comments about pulseaudio + midi - and have a laugh too.

...and Let's put it this way - My Atom notebook - 5ms latency, round trip. Quite suitable for playing 'live' with. My old Dell inspiron core-duo (piece of garbage) - 5ms latency, round trip. suitable for recording and playing live with.

you notebook - 20ms latency - a laughable joke. (especially, when you are claiming that is good!!)

If you really wish a proper discussion, start by reading up on netbooks, what they are, what hardware they sport and what they are used for; then read up on acceptable latencies for different kinds of workloads, what Steinberg has to say on the topic, you know, actual facts; come back with that, lose the attitude and then we can discuss. Otherwise, do keep trying to troll - I'm sure you have more entertainment to offer.

Again, i've purchased many notebooks, netbooks, desktops and servers in the last bunch of years - i know all about the differences between hardware - you can try to talk down to me all you like - but it doesn't change anything. you've already proven you have no real understanding, that you can't even create an argument without using fallacies, making up shit, or putting words in people's mouths, and as far as i am concerned you don't deserve any respect from me (or anyone else), and you know exactly why (by avoiding addressing the flaws, i've pointed out, repeatadly -> but no doubt that you completely avoid them, because all that i pointed out, is TRUE - and you know it!).

Acceptable latency under different workloads... Simple, using a midi keyboard and having accurate sounding audio - 20ms is too high. You've already said the opposite. (which beyond a shadow of a doubt, illustrates that you don't know what you talking about) I've already explained this - you should have no more than 8ms, if you actually intend to be playing it.... Recording (live instruments, midi) - requires low-latency, for the 'capture' to be accurate. (otherwise with midi, you might as well be step-sequencing, or having to quantize your playing - losing all actual 'natural' feel.

High latencies are generally used for mixing (when you have heavy DSP load, CPU intensive), as it can require giving the computer more time to process. Higher latencies are completely useless, if you plan to actually be playing, or recording live inputs. 20ms = high latency, not low latency. - it's not rocket science, blacktard.

Lastly, Your assertion that i don't know anything about PCs, audio production and the rest of it - is just your pathetic to try to make yourself seem more smarter than you actually are. But you've already lost any credibility that you had when you;

a). said 20ms was low-latency and suitable for a midi-keyboard
b). tried to use PA to achieve low latency with alsa-midi
c). created fallacies
d). put words in my mouth that i didn't say
e). failed to understand, basic concepts in most of my posts
f). failed to address any of the above listed problems, among other issues in your logic and presonality

You have ZERO credibility and are a joke, sir. NOTHING more.

bye bye

[BlackStar]

And I rest my case.

PS:

a). said 20ms was low-latency and suitable for a midi-keyboard
b). tried to use PA to achieve low latency with alsa-midi

No and no.

What I did was use a MIDI keyboard to tune my drumset to specific notes. 20ms latency is perfectly fine for that.

But as I said, overreacting much. You didn't even bother to ask what I was trying to do and just charged ahead blindly.

And the funny thing is that we actually agree on everything other than PA vs dmix and your attitude. My original argument was that there's no reason to use dmix anymore, because PA does everything dmix did, and does it better. You somehow turned that into a strawman about latency, JACK, audio production and your penis size - you know what? Off-topic. And completely entertaining.

Thanks for making my day.

[V!NCENT]

This will be legendary (and historical) because I'm going to defend BlackStar (come to think that that day would ever come ).

@Ninez,

If your brain can't adjust to 20ms delay, you need a new one.

-Vincent

[ninez]

And I rest my case.

PS:

No and no.

I think you mean positively YES to a). , while i will say b). maybe a little more grey. But the fact is your assertion that with alsa you get 200ms latency, vs. PA 20ms ~ tells me, your system is configured badly. Anyway, here is exactly why you can't claim 'no' to a). ;

The solution? Pulseaudio. A trivial configuration change and I get 20ms latency - and that's on a netbook

*20ms on a netbook without dedicated hardware is awesome*

What I did was use a MIDI keyboard to tune my drumset to specific notes. 20ms latency is perfectly fine for that.

But as I said, overreacting much. You didn't even bother to ask what I was trying to do and just charged ahead blindly.

you didn't say "20ms on a netbook without dedicated hardware is awesome --> *if using a keyboard to tune a drumset*." no no, blacktard, what you said is that 20ms ... is 'awesome'. followed by a period, ending the sentence...That doesn't imply the use case you are now tacking onto it. Furthermore, 200ms would be suitable for that task - which makes that argument /dev/null...

If you can't spot the difference between those two statements ~ do not assume that other people can't. - That was a very dishonest, ingenious, and equally pathetic attempt at trying to cover your own stupidity. - and that is really funny

So in reality, blacktard - from a). to f). applies to you, with only b). having any grey area AT ALL! Thank you for admitting that. Yoiu may be dumb and a total duche ~ but atleast your willing to admit that.

And the funny thing is that we actually agree on everything other than PA vs dmix and your attitude. My original argument was that there's no reason to use dmix anymore, because PA does everything dmix did, and does it better.

I still concede that is very arguable. but we don't have to agree on that, as i already pointed out.

You somehow turned that into a strawman about latency, JACK, audio production and your penis size - you know what? Off-topic. And completely entertaining.

Thanks for making my day.

It didn't turn into a strawman about latency, etc - if you don't seem remember i will help you then;

the turning point was when I tried to use a MIDI keyboard with pure ALSA. Impossible

You then proceed to say PA fixed your problem and made it work, but it sounds to me like ALSA wasn't configured properly, as 200ms is ridiculous.

The audio workstation stuff came up after, when i gave a prime example of a product using ALSA, and later proceeded to also say that my workstation (and all of my other machines) have much lower latency (significantly) with ALSA. You went on to say that ALSA is completely useless, as well. You are simply wrong. You can argue all you like, but in the end it doesn't matter - you're still straight up wrong! You also went on to say, that i don't know anything about audio/latency/etc, and told me to go and read up on it, but then you go on to say - that you actually agree with me on almost all points;

here's the thing - that is a huge contradiction - and you can't have it both ways. You are so incredibly full of crap.. Just another reason to call you blacktard i suppose

cheerz