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Torvalds: User-Space File-Systems, Toys, Misguided People

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  • #16
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    While he's just talking then it's ok. I can't imagine FUSE going away soon, but probably nobody said it will be removed.
    Linus did NOT say that FUSE was useless and should go away. He said that EXT4 on FUSE would be stupid. NTFS on FUSE is fine though, since nobody in their right mind would make their root FS NTFS or use NTFS for anything besides some data retrieval from a corrupt windoze install.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
      Linus did NOT say that FUSE was useless and should go away. He said that EXT4 on FUSE would be stupid. NTFS on FUSE is fine though, since nobody in their right mind would make their root FS NTFS or use NTFS for anything besides some data retrieval from a corrupt windoze install.
      Why corrupt? Mine is perfectly fine. So is the NTFS disk of everyone who dual-boots Windows/Linux (which is A FREAKIN' LOT of people.)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
        Why corrupt? Mine is perfectly fine. So is the NTFS disk of everyone who dual-boots Windows/Linux (which is A FREAKIN' LOT of people.)
        Why else would you want to access disk from wondoze unless its to recover data?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
          Why else would you want to access disk from wondoze unless its to recover data?
          I already said why in my post. Maybe you should try reading the stuff you quote.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RealNC View Post
            I already said why in my post. Maybe you should try reading the stuff you quote.
            No you didn't, what you suggested makes no sense. There's no point.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              No you didn't, what you suggested makes no sense. There's no point.
              How's there no point in accessing the data of my Windows installation? Stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking, dude. It's bad for your brain.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by droidhacker
                Why else would you want to access disk from wondoze unless its to recover data?
                If you have a dual-boot setup, putting shared data (music/video collection, VM disk images, etc.) on NTFS makes it readily accessible from both Windows and Linux. NTFS is also commonly used on large external HDDs for similar reasons.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                  How's there no point in accessing the data of my Windows installation? Stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking, dude. It's bad for your brain.
                  If you have to access the wrong side's data from the other side, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                    Can you explain how either of those kernels are more micro-kernel than Linux is? I think all 3 of them are properly classified as hybrid kernels, and all are pretty similarly designed.
                    A hybrid kernel is a term made up to cover for the fact that Apple was full of shit about using a Microkernel from day one.

                    Microsoft actually had the balls to try to put a microkernel into production. NT, for very early versions, actually had a microkernel. But they figured out why Linus was right and abandoned that design.

                    They may retain some 'microkernel'-isms here and there, but they are not Microkernels by any stretch of the imagination.

                    This is a good thing as Microkernels are much larger, much more complex, and much slower then monolythic.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                      If you have to access the wrong side's data from the other side, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
                      Most user data doesn't have a "side".

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                        Linus did NOT say that FUSE was useless and should go away. He said that EXT4 on FUSE would be stupid. NTFS on FUSE is fine though, since nobody in their right mind would make their root FS NTFS or use NTFS for anything besides some data retrieval from a corrupt windoze install.
                        Well, maybe a bit more than that. I write software for Windows and Linux, and I need native Windows install (not VMware or wine) to test it. I frequently use ntfs-3g to move files (source code, sometimes binaries) between my Windows partition and my Linux partition. I also store my entire music collection on NTFS on the Windows side, so that I can access it natively on Windows, and through ntfs-3g on Linux.

                        The alternative would be to install an ext4-capable driver on Windows. The problem with that is the only existing ext* driver on Windows only supports up to ext3, and you can't use any of the ext4 features that break the on-disk format if you want to use that driver. Other than being essentially stuck mounting my volumes as ext3, the Windows driver further has the disadvantage of having a much smaller user community and therefore less testing and a higher likelihood of breaking. Plus, I don't entirely trust third party kernel modules on my Windows box: having a "built-in" NTFS driver on Windows, and a "built-in" officially supported ntfs-3g on a Linux distro is the safer bet. And if ntfs-3g has a problem you can fall back on your distro to support it (and maybe even fix it -- it's open source!), assuming that it's in the `main' repository.

                        I've even used ntfsfix to un-bork an NTFS volume that wound up in a nasty state due to power failure or a BSOD while running Windows. I hear it causes fragmentation and doesn't do as good of a job at recovering things as Microsoft's chkdsk, but I haven't lost any data because of it.

                        Basically ntfs-3g is fast enough for me, and it's most certainly stable enough. I use it continuously via Rhythmbox for playing music on the Linux side, and I have the volume in my /etc/fstab. And sometimes I do large data writes (>1GB) through it with no ill side effects.

                        Of course I do own a professional copy of DiskKeeper on the Windows side, which I use to De-Frag the NTFS volume, to keep the performance steady. This is the only downside I see to using NTFS as my cross-platform filesystem for files that need to be available both for Windows and Linux. My only other viable alternative is FAT32, which is universally supported, but the data integrity there is pathetic because there's no journal, so... not happening.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                          My only other viable alternative is FAT32, which is universally supported, but the data integrity there is pathetic because there's no journal, so... not happening.
                          NTFS doesn't do data journalling, does it? I've lost far more data on NTFS than FAT32, including a two gigabyte file that Internet Explorer was downloading overnight on my 512k DSL connection some years back (machine beeped when the file finished downloading, I couldn't be bothered to get out of bed and turn it off, power went out, machine rebooted, after chkdsk ran the file was gone).

                          That said, there are plenty of other good reasons not to use FAT32.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by elanthis View Post
                            If your WDDM driver in Windows crashes, it just restarts, and even quite a few apps that use D3D directly can recover from that restart without a hitch. It's pretty awesome.
                            Maybe, but it has to do that because I see far more video driver crashes in Windows than in Linux. Same machine, both operating systems using proprietary drivers from Nvidia, and I spend about 10x as much time running Linux on it than Windows.

                            While it may be awesome, fixing the regular crashes would seem like a better idea than trying to work around them in this way.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                              Of course I do own a professional copy of DiskKeeper on the Windows side, which I use to De-Frag the NTFS volume, to keep the performance steady. This is the only downside I see to using NTFS as my cross-platform filesystem for files that need to be available both for Windows and Linux. My only other viable alternative is FAT32, which is universally supported, but the data integrity there is pathetic because there's no journal, so... not happening.
                              udf

                              look into it.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by energyman View Post
                                udf

                                look into it.
                                Not a bad idea in principle, but UDF filesystems are read-only in Windows XP unless you install a third-party driver.
                                Last edited by Ex-Cyber; 06-27-2011, 01:15 PM.

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