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Mobile Users Beware: Linux Has Major Power Regression

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  • #61
    Originally posted by deanjo View Post
    Kraftman it isn't BS. It is just plain fact. OS X beats linux in many areas as well and in the case of power management it has had an implementation that has worked properly going back to the original Mac. It took years for even microsoft to come up with decent power management. With Win 7 they have finally worked on it enough that it is finally usable. It is no secret that linux has shitty power management and has been a sore point for a long time. It's to bad that you get so offended by reality.
    It's true os x beats Linux in some areas, but it's also true Linux beats os x in many areas. The reality is os x is supposed to run on apples hardware and Linux is supposed to run on nearly everything. It's not fair comparing os x power managament, because it's hardware spectrum is very low. I wonder if power managament works so well in hackintosh installations?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by deanjo View Post
      Umm ya ok, thats why many Android devices out there have "wake up" issues.
      As well as iphones and os x:

      http://www.silicon.com/technology/mo...hone-39285816/
      http://osxdaily.com/2010/03/24/when-...ontroller-smc/
      http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iph...ent-issue.html

      It's really not worth to make such comparisons, because there are always some problems.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by kraftman View Post
        It's true os x beats Linux in some areas, but it's also true Linux beats os x in many areas. The reality is os x is supposed to run on apples hardware and Linux is supposed to run on nearly everything. It's not fair comparing os x power managament, because it's hardware spectrum is very low. I wonder if power managament works so well in hackintosh installations?
        It works surprisingly well on hackintosh installations.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
          As well as iphones and os x:

          http://www.silicon.com/technology/mo...hone-39285816/
          http://osxdaily.com/2010/03/24/when-...ontroller-smc/
          http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iph...ent-issue.html

          It's really not worth to make such comparisons, because there are always some problems.
          Ya there is always some problems, I am not saying that there isn't, I am saying however that power management is an issue on linux, has been for a long time, and on Apple products PM has worked far more reliably then it's competitors. I would put any OS X product against any of their competitors and even try simple things like putting it to sleep. I would bet with great confidence that after even 500 such cycles the Mac would keep on waking and sleeping fine. Turning off a desktop Mac is a rare practice because it does work so damn well.

          BTW, zapping the pram/smc usually only helps on a mac after a firmware/efi update.

          As far as power consumption goes the numbers speak for themselves:

          http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20041273-1.html
          http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt

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          • #65
            Originally posted by deanjo View Post
            Ya there is always some problems, I am not saying that there isn't, I am saying however that power management is an issue on linux, has been for a long time, and on Apple products PM has worked far more reliably then it's competitors. I would put any OS X product against any of their competitors and even try simple things like putting it to sleep. I would bet with great confidence that after even 500 such cycles the Mac would keep on waking and sleeping fine. Turning off a desktop Mac is a rare practice because it does work so damn well.

            BTW, zapping the pram/smc usually only helps on a mac after a firmware/efi update.

            As far as power consumption goes the numbers speak for themselves:

            http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20041273-1.html
            http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt
            Power management on Linux is on par (in some areas) with power management on Windows and OSX once you install Jupiter. Without it, power management on Linux is virtually non-existant. Suspend / Hibernate have been a problem for as long as I can remember. It is only now with the 2.6.37-2.6.38 kernels that I can suspend all of my portable devices without a kernel panic after just a few attempts.

            There are still reports of devices that aren't suspending and resuming properly even with these new kernels though, unfortunately.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by fewt View Post
              Power management on Linux is on par (in some areas) with power management on Windows and OSX once you install Jupiter. Without it, power management on Linux is virtually non-existant. Suspend / Hibernate have been a problem for as long as I can remember. It is only now with the 2.6.37-2.6.38 kernels that I can suspend all of my portable devices without a kernel panic after just a few attempts.

              There are still reports of devices that aren't suspending and resuming properly even with these new kernels though, unfortunately.
              Yes, Jupiter is so good that needs as a dependecy mono (a very linux-friendly program, OC (irony)). That also means installing about 140MB of files (in the case of mono, 140MB of bloat) to your linux installation and new 'hassles' to your system...

              Have you ever heard about "laptop-mode-tools", btw?

              Cheers

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              • #67
                Originally posted by evolution View Post
                Yes, Jupiter is so good that needs as a dependecy mono (a very linux-friendly program, OC (irony)). That also means installing about 140MB of files (in the case of mono, 140MB of bloat) to your linux installation and new 'hassles' to your system...

                Have you ever heard about "laptop-mode-tools", btw?

                Cheers
                Jupiter depends on Mono, yes. It also uses less than 20MB of resident memory, and 0 CPU time.

                It has been designed to be light and friendly since it was originally designed for netbooks. The Mono toolkit provided this so I used it. Mono itself is neither Linux friendly, nor unfriendly. It is just another toolkit to write software.

                It is also no where near the exaggerated dependency claim of 140MB, Jupiter's mono dependency is under 10MB, and the RPM that hosts the framework is 40MB.

                I would love to see evidence of the "hassles" that it brings to your system, sounds like someone just doesn't understand it. Smells like a Fear Uncertainty and Doubt campaign, surprise!

                No, I haven't heard of laptop-mode-tools, what is it? Maybe I can add it to the suite of toolkits that Jupiter controls.

                Oh wait, I've already done that.

                Ignorance is bliss I suppose, and to each his own. I prefer the battery life promised by the vendor of my hardware, which in my case is a difference of 4-5 hours of runtime with nothing or 9-11 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Eee, and 2-3 hours of runtime with nothing vs 6-7 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Thinkpad t400. My choice is clear, but then again I have an open mind and an understanding of how power management should work.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by fewt View Post
                  Jupiter depends on Mono, yes. It also uses less than 20MB of resident memory, and 0 CPU time.

                  It has been designed to be light and friendly since it was originally designed for netbooks. The Mono toolkit provided this so I used it. Mono itself is neither Linux friendly, nor unfriendly. It is just another toolkit to write software.

                  It is also no where near the exaggerated dependency claim of 140MB, Jupiter's mono dependency is under 10MB, and the RPM that hosts the framework is 40MB.

                  I would love to see evidence of the "hassles" that it brings to your system, sounds like someone just doesn't understand it. Smells like a Fear Uncertainty and Doubt campaign, surprise!

                  No, I haven't heard of laptop-mode-tools, what is it? Maybe I can add it to the suite of toolkits that Jupiter controls.

                  Oh wait, I've already done that.

                  Ignorance is bliss I suppose, and to each his own. I prefer the battery life promised by the vendor of my hardware, which in my case is a difference of 4-5 hours of runtime with nothing or 9-11 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Eee, and 2-3 hours of runtime with nothing vs 6-7 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Thinkpad t400. My choice is clear, but then again I have an open mind and an understanding of how power management should work.
                  Maybe it depends of the distro... On Arch, if you install mono, you'll need to install about 140MB of extra dependencies... (see by yourself here)

                  You never heard about laptop-mode-tools? A lot of linux laptop users use it...!
                  You can see some more info here (Arch's Wiki) and here (official site)...

                  Btw, the way you're talking, are you a Jupiter developer...?

                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by evolution View Post
                    Maybe it depends of the distro... On Arch, if you install mono, you'll need to install about 140MB of extra dependencies... (see by yourself here)

                    You never heard about laptop-mode-tools? A lot of linux laptop users use it...!
                    You can see some more info here (Arch's Wiki) and here (official site)...

                    Btw, the way you're talking, are you a Jupiter developer...?

                    Cheers
                    I wasn't serious (in regard to laptop-mode-tools), Jupiter has set the laptop mode kernel parameter since day 1. It doesn't replace the entire suite of laptop-mode-tools but it does complement it. I'm not familiar with Arch, but that looks like a packaging issue.

                    I am the Jupiter author, yes.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Well, after seeing some of the last posts here...:

                      - MacOS X (unfortunately) beats "pants down" both Linux and Windows in terms of Power Management features. I've a few friends that use Mac Laptops (not engineering students, OC ) and they use their laptops only with battery for over than 6 hours...!

                      - In my computer, I had slightly better power management on Linux + laptop-mode-tools until 2.6.37 than I had on Windows 7 (which also works a bit hotter)... Now, both OS have +/- the same performance...

                      - How about a volunteer (or a group of volunteers) to test Jupiter throughly and compare its performance vs userspace laptop-mode-tools?
                      ATM, I won't install Jupiter because of the reasons posted above (on arch, mono is a big dependency, and I'm not a huge fan of certain kind of applications on Linux)...

                      Cheers

                      p.s.: To the Jupiter developer (fewt): Keep up the good work, btw!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by fewt View Post
                        I am the Jupiter author, yes.
                        What does it actually do? The doc seems very, very vague. Does it do more than what powertop suggests?

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by not.sure View Post
                          What does it actually do? The doc seems very, very vague. Does it do more than what powertop suggests?
                          It implements the most common configuration changes from powertop when the power connection is broken, and sets them back to default when the connection is re-established. It also adjusts the processor governor.

                          It enables / disables things like SATA Link power management, USB power management, Audio card power management, scheduler power management, laptop mode (kernel parameter) etc.

                          With the Eee PC support package, it enables Asus's Super Hybrid Engine technology (already available in the kernel) and also overclocks / underclocks the GPU (on supported hardware).

                          There is plenty of documentation available in the Wiki.

                          I've been able to reach 11 hours on my 1015PEM, without Jupiter, 5 ish. There are thousands of users currently, it's been popular with Eee PC users for years now.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by fewt View Post
                            It implements..
                            Thanks. So there's no magic involved. The eee stuff sounds nice though. I'll try that on my T91 (5h winxp vs 4h ubuntu).

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by not.sure View Post
                              Thanks. So there's no magic involved. The eee stuff sounds nice though. I'll try that on my T91 (5h winxp vs 4h ubuntu).
                              Right, no magic. Just a simple tool that takes all of the (manual) power saving best practices and automates them.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Broken sleep/hibernate

                                I had sleep and hibernation working on my Zepto notebook (intel graphics and dual-core cpu) after some fiddling around with swap, etc, since Ubuntu 8.10 or something like that. But Ubuntu 10.04 broke that completely and it still hasn't been fixed. I've debugged, tried looking for docs or howto:s, but it just seems like it's broken.

                                Perhaps it's time to give Fedora or some other distribution a shot. I've been running Gentoo for soon-to-be 10 years on my desktop computer, but all the compiling feels like a waste of time on a laptop. Talk about battery consuming =)

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