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Google Comes Up With Its Own Image Format: WebP

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  • #21
    Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
    By Linux I meant open source community.
    Though google does tend to play ok with open source, they aren't exactly the epitome of open source, nor should their behavior be considered particularly relevant within the context of open source.

    It is nice that they are into this brainstorming and have come out with webm for video, BUT, unlike with video, there wasn't/isn't anywhere near as great of a need for more image formats.

    And quite frankly, this didn't come out with nearly as much media hype as webm did, so I tend to interpret this more along the lines of... "hey cool, you guys know there's this other neat thing that we can do with VPX."

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    • #22
      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
      Though google does tend to play ok with open source, they aren't exactly the epitome of open source, nor should their behavior be considered particularly relevant within the context of open source.

      It is nice that they are into this brainstorming and have come out with webm for video, BUT, unlike with video, there wasn't/isn't anywhere near as great of a need for more image formats.

      And quite frankly, this didn't come out with nearly as much media hype as webm did, so I tend to interpret this more along the lines of... "hey cool, you guys know there's this other neat thing that we can do with VPX."
      Open source is in reference to open standards as well, which google wants a part of (Probably tired of paying license fees tbh).

      The problem is people like Apple refuse to implement them (Theora) due to "unknown" patents. Google wants to eliminate this, by basically putting patents on it, then releasing said patents.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        And then, of course.... this guy cheated with jpeg by applying jpegcrush! Sorry, but NO -- that is not allowed!
        Why not? The ultimate goal was to reduce web traffic by making our pictures smaller.
        If jpegs can be saved more efficiently without reducing picture quality, then that's the way to go. It's easier to build an open source jpeg exporter and get it into popular image editors than it is to get support for a new picture format altogether.

        When comparing formats, you must use the best encoder available for each format. They obviously used the best available for WebP, and if they released results before applying all needed optimizations, they have only themselves to blame.

        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        Here's the worst part of it... that x264 page is STARTING with a DEGRADED IMAGE, and subjecting it to three encoding schemes, two of which are the same as the one that initially degraded it!
        Are you sure their source images isn't lossless? I have trouble spotting any artefacts there. The blog post sounds like it'd be straight from the camera, before exporting to a lossy format.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
          By Linux I meant open source community.
          This has gotten shot down because it's not winning enough on technical merits. And it will fail due to non-open software will refuse to implement support.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Micket View Post
            This has gotten shot down because it's not winning enough on technical merits. And it will fail due to non-open software will refuse to implement support.
            If Chrome, Firefox and WebKit browsers (Safari!) implement it, then it will probably succeed regardless of what Microsoft does. And that's due to Macs having a big market share, and the Windows users who use browsers other than IE.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              If Chrome, Firefox and WebKit browsers (Safari!) implement it, then it will probably succeed regardless of what Microsoft does. And that's due to Macs having a big market share, and the Windows users who use browsers other than IE.
              I very much doubt it. Shit like IE6 is still around and haunting the web.
              And i didn't specifically say Microsoft, I doubt Adobe will be quick to pick this up either, and where do people prepare images for the web?
              What about hardware, i.e. cameras?

              Who is going to disregard over half of the visitors?
              If it had some technical merits to boast with, sure, but this is very mediocre, as many have pointed out already. It's just not that good. Smoothes images out alot. Alot more complicated to decode, an actual concern for weaker devices.

              Ogg has support here and there, with typically all open source software you found, and can hardly be called a success so far.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Micket View Post
                I very much doubt it. Shit like IE6 is still around and haunting the web.
                And i didn't specifically say Microsoft, I doubt Adobe will be quick to pick this up either, and where do people prepare images for the web?
                What about hardware, i.e. cameras?

                Who is going to disregard over half of the visitors?
                If it had some technical merits to boast with, sure, but this is very mediocre, as many have pointed out already. It's just not that good. Smoothes images out alot. Alot more complicated to decode, an actual concern for weaker devices.

                Ogg has support here and there, with typically all open source software you found, and can hardly be called a success so far.
                Tons of websites already serve up different pages based on what browser is viewing them. It wouldn't be difficult to serve WebM images to some browsers and JPEG to the rest. Is it worth the effort? Probably not for the desktop, but if it's significantly faster download/render on Android, that could be enough to drive adoption.

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                • #28
                  It's not faster, the x264 dev estimated webp is about 3x as intensive to decode as jpeg.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                    Tons of websites already serve up different pages based on what browser is viewing them. It wouldn't be difficult to serve WebM images to some browsers and JPEG to the rest. Is it worth the effort? Probably not for the desktop, but if it's significantly faster download/render on Android, that could be enough to drive adoption.
                    But it is NOT significantly faster to download, and especially not to render.
                    It might be marginally faster to download.


                    Everyone is speaking like jpeg is really bad, but I don't see it.
                    Lack of alpha channel maybe? That's about it.

                    Someone also mentioned PGF in this thread, and I desperately searched for some some examples, but i just couldn't find any. I managed to download a test set of images, so i compiled the library myself and decoded the images. The results where pretty shitty; I compared by encoding the orignals to an equal size, and visually comparing the results. PGF blurred out some details, otherwise roughly the same. JPG clearly won.

                    I never found jpeg2000 to be particulary impressive either. JPG is simply very good. Very few people care about transparency, as it's typically photographs.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Micket View Post
                      I never found jpeg2000 to be particulary impressive either. JPG is simply very good. Very few people care about transparency, as it's typically photographs.
                      jp2 allows higher bit-depths, its not just transparency.

                      Compare the filesize of a 48bpp tiff and the same image as a jp2. That is why jp2 is interesting.

                      Anyway, I think the obvious point that everyone missed is that someone at Google needs to justify their continued employment, they are doing so with pointless crap that doesn't really fill a niche but impresses their boss.

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