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Google Comes Up With Its Own Image Format: WebP

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  • #11
    Originally posted by [Knuckles] View Post
    If it's lossy compression, comparing it to PNG doesn't really make sense, since PNG is lossless.
    Those are PNG's of webp encoded images, it was necessary since no browser yet supports webp and thus you would not be able to see the result.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by rohcQaH View Post
      I remain sceptical.
      Well, so do I. Until some expert(s) does some objective tests on a wide range of preferably non-lossy source images the results are very inconclusive. That said I won't discard it either until I've seen the results of such a test. Meanwhile I might try the converter thingy and try to make up my own subjective-not-backed-up-by-any-data verdict.

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      • #13
        I do see value, the value of "lossless" is overrated - users and web devs want clear pictures, transparency and a small size in the first place. Even on desktop I'm sick of PNG, I do a screenshot it takes 2MB, I transcode it to jpeg and it only takes 200kb (10 times less, not bad eh?) with no visual difference, take another 40% off and you get like 140KB WebP, plus don't forget WebP will get transparency in the future which makes it so much better than JPEG _and_ PNG in a lot of cases, so to me it's _very_ attractive.
        Problem is, Microsoft will most likely support it either not at all or in several years.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by cl333r View Post
          Problem is, Microsoft will most likely support it either not at all or in several years.
          That may actually be a good thing... google is big enough that they may be able to FORCE it... if they have the brass to actually make a stance.

          And FYI: There is NO SUCH THING as 10x smaller. You mean 1/10th as big.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by cl333r View Post
            I do see value, the value of "lossless" is overrated - users and web devs want clear pictures, transparency and a small size in the first place. Even on desktop I'm sick of PNG, I do a screenshot it takes 2MB, I transcode it to jpeg and it only takes 200kb (10 times less, not bad eh?) with no visual difference, take another 40% off and you get like 140KB WebP, plus don't forget WebP will get transparency in the future which makes it so much better than JPEG _and_ PNG in a lot of cases, so to me it's _very_ attractive.
            Problem is, Microsoft will most likely support it either not at all or in several years.
            I just wish people would release desktop backgrounds as PNG. I hate backgrounds that have artifacting.

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            • #16
              The moment someone suggests any type of change gets shot down. This is why Linux is going nowhere. Because every time someone tries to innovate everyone else complains, but when someone makes a decision that makes little sense nobody does.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by karasu View Post
                Because jpg2000 is patent encumbered.
                ...as is WebM. Google never proved that VP8/WebM is not encumbered by patents, but other people proved that VP8/WebM uses the EXACT same Technologies as H.264. And the MPEG LA holds a huge bunch of patents on H.264.

                Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
                The moment someone suggests any type of change gets shot down.
                If you suggest changes, please prove that they make sense. Googles "proof" is downloading a million COMPRESSED still images from the web, compressing them again with VP8, and then claiming the result was smaller.

                Well, it HAS to be.

                On the other hand the x264 devs delivered som real results (http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=541), and as it seems VP8 can not even beat JPEG at the moment - a 20 year old codec.

                Sure, Google promises to deliver improvements and new features like transparency, but they also promised to improve WebM, and nothing has happened in the last four weeks. I will believe them when I see results.

                A new image container without lossless compression (you know, there ARE people who use it) and animations is just plain stupid anyways. The gain over JPEG and GIF is too small.

                Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
                This is why Linux is going nowhere.
                This has nothing to do with Linux, nice try.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by sturmflut View Post
                  other people proved that VP8/WebM uses the EXACT same Technologies as H.264.
                  Not exactly, no.
                  A lot of what is in h.264 is perfectly free. The vast majority of it, in fact is made up of functions that NOBODY has a claim to.

                  If you suggest changes, please prove that they make sense. Googles "proof" is downloading a million COMPRESSED still images from the web, compressing them again with VP8, and then claiming the result was smaller.

                  Well, it HAS to be.
                  Actually, no again, that is not how compression works.
                  The "recompression" actually begins with a DECOMPRESSION. The RAW image, (i.e. AFTER decompression) is then compressed with the new system. The second compression doesn't gain anything from the first one -- they are NOT cumulative. I.e., in some cases, a "zip of a zip" might be smaller than the first zip. This is not the case here, since an image can only be compressed from raw.

                  Now here's the funny part of this;
                  Source compression can actually have some seriously bad effects that crop up with multiple recompressions -- especially if you change the encoding scheme. You know how a photocopy of a photocopy will degrade in appearance? Well it changes even MORE when you change the encoding scheme.... like taking a PICTURE of a PHOTOCOPY, getting a print, and photocopying it. That would end up REAL ugly.

                  If you are starting with a degraded image and want to maintain it as NOT SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE, you need to compress VERY VERY LIGHTLY! Again, if you're changing encoding schemes, the effects become more pronounced, which means BIGGER STILL!!!

                  Here's the worst part of it... that x264 page is STARTING with a DEGRADED IMAGE, and subjecting it to three encoding schemes, two of which are the same as the one that initially degraded it!


                  And then, of course.... this guy cheated with jpeg by applying jpegcrush! Sorry, but NO -- that is not allowed! You need to compress that jpeg more to get the file size down, not apply cheats to one but not the other! Similar cheats are equally possible for VPX, but this guy isn't offering that advantage. You want fair results? Perform a fair test!

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                  • #19
                    Why don't they use PGF.
                    It has very nice features such as better compression and fast decode/encode speed compared to jpeg2000.
                    (This is NOT meant as an advertisement for it.)

                    http://www.libpgf.org/

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by sturmflut View Post
                      ...as is WebM. Google never proved that VP8/WebM is not encumbered by patents, but other people proved that VP8/WebM uses the EXACT same Technologies as H.264. And the MPEG LA holds a huge bunch of patents on H.264.



                      If you suggest changes, please prove that they make sense. Googles "proof" is downloading a million COMPRESSED still images from the web, compressing them again with VP8, and then claiming the result was smaller.

                      Well, it HAS to be.

                      On the other hand the x264 devs delivered som real results (http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=541), and as it seems VP8 can not even beat JPEG at the moment - a 20 year old codec.

                      Sure, Google promises to deliver improvements and new features like transparency, but they also promised to improve WebM, and nothing has happened in the last four weeks. I will believe them when I see results.

                      A new image container without lossless compression (you know, there ARE people who use it) and animations is just plain stupid anyways. The gain over JPEG and GIF is too small.



                      This has nothing to do with Linux, nice try.
                      By Linux I meant open source community.

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