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Theora 1.1 Thusnelda Is Released

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  • #31
    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    If Theora can do what H.264 (with x264) can currently do, namely compress an 1080p BluRay to 4GB and still look awesome, then it might be accepted as a true alternative. It's not unlikely; Vorbis beat MP3 and matched ACC. Now it's Theora's turn?
    This will never happen for even the best encoder that is compatible with the Theora format as it is today. Theora has a fairly low limit on motion vectors. This limit is reached very quickly in high-motion 1080p material. When this limit is reached, the next frame can't build on the previous one, so encoding performance is utterly destroyed. The only way to fix this, is to create a "Theora HD" which breaks compatibility.

    Note that this is not a problem at all for high-motion material with fewer pixels, or for high-resolution material with little motion. Most Youtube videos fall into this category. A good Theora encoder could very well beat H.264 for these kinds of videos.

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    • #32
      YouTube is using 720p H.264 now. I don't know if they have plans to use 1080p in the future.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Remco View Post
        This will never happen for even the best encoder that is compatible with the Theora format as it is today. Theora has a fairly low limit on motion vectors. This limit is reached very quickly in high-motion 1080p material. When this limit is reached, the next frame can't build on the previous one, so encoding performance is utterly destroyed. The only way to fix this, is to create a "Theora HD" which breaks compatibility.

        Note that this is not a problem at all for high-motion material with fewer pixels, or for high-resolution material with little motion. Most Youtube videos fall into this category. A good Theora encoder could very well beat H.264 for these kinds of videos.
        As far as I know too, theora aims to compete with Xvid/DivX and even H264 on lower resolution movies, rather than H264 at HD ones. For the latter, Dirac aims to compete with H264, though it needs a lot of work still.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Apopas View Post
          As far as I know too, theora aims to compete with Xvid/DivX and even H264 on lower resolution movies, rather than H264 at HD ones. For the latter, Dirac aims to compete with H264, though it needs a lot of work still.

          Right now the focus, at least as far as people like Redhat seem to be concerned, is for web content. Low-bitrate, low resolution type stuff.

          720p in Youtube is the extreme upper range of anything people are likely to want to deal with bandwidth-wise.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by drag View Post
            Right now the focus, at least as far as people like Redhat seem to be concerned, is for web content. Low-bitrate, low resolution type stuff.

            720p in Youtube is the extreme upper range of anything people are likely to want to deal with bandwidth-wise.
            I don't agree. 24mbit connections are widespread, with 8mbit being a very common lower-bound. Since streaming 1080p H.264 can be done with 4mbit, it's already a reality.

            720p on YouTube has nothing "extreme upper range" in it; you can watch it realtime with a 2mbit connection, and 2mbit is pretty much the lowest broadband speed you can get (and mostly you can't; lowest is 4mbit in most places.)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              I don't agree. 24mbit connections are widespread, with 8mbit being a very common lower-bound. Since streaming 1080p H.264 can be done with 4mbit, it's already a reality.

              720p on YouTube has nothing "extreme upper range" in it; you can watch it realtime with a 2mbit connection, and 2mbit is pretty much the lowest broadband speed you can get (and mostly you can't; lowest is 4mbit in most places.)
              Unless you live in Australia and have Telstra as the company controlling the majority of the infrastructure.

              Here's something to laugh at: Telstra thinks 256kbit is Fast (BigPond is Telstra's internet retail arm)

              And those quotas... dear God, can't wait for our NBN to be built and Telstra structurally separated. Worst. Telco. Ever.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                I don't agree. 24mbit connections are widespread, with 8mbit being a very common lower-bound.
                ahahhaahaha. Man i thought republicans where oblivious to the world around them. This takes the cake .

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                • #38
                  I don't live in Australia. I live in Greece, in a distant island even, and have 24mbit DSL. No quotas (flatrate is the standard). Greece is a country that offers quite slow connections compared to the rest of Europe.

                  So, to put it bluntly: "ahahhaahaha. Man i thought Americans where oblivious to the world around them. This takes the cake "

                  You have bandwidth problems in the U.S., but there's more in the world than just the U.S.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                    I don't agree. 24mbit connections are widespread, with 8mbit being a very common lower-bound. Since streaming 1080p H.264 can be done with 4mbit, it's already a reality.

                    720p on YouTube has nothing "extreme upper range" in it; you can watch it realtime with a 2mbit connection, and 2mbit is pretty much the lowest broadband speed you can get (and mostly you can't; lowest is 4mbit in most places.)
                    Most 720p content on YouTube has little motion either. But I agree, if Youtube is to use a free format on HD content too, it has to work for the rare high-motion content too. There are two options: Dirac or a fixed Theora for HD.

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                    • #40
                      As a xiph.org hacker (currently in charge of the Theora java decoder) I'm of course quite happy that we finally got Theora 1.1 out of the door.

                      Currently most 720p online video right now is about 2 Mbit/s, which quite frankly isn't enough for any current codec to show 720p with proper details. If in the future 4 Mbit/s is available (not the clients are the problems, but video streaming is costly if you need to keep thousands of 4 Mbit/s connections alive) I'd very much prefer it being invested in high-quality 720p instead of mediocre 1080p.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        You have bandwidth problems in the U.S., but there's more in the world than just the U.S.
                        Well im not from the united states.

                        the UK is in the same boat as the US from what people tell me, Few years back a french guy that was staying with me thought my Internet was speedy (and his family was made of money...). The aussies get shafted.... Well jeez der goes a big chunk of the developed world right there.

                        http://www.speedtest.net/global.php

                        European speeds are only slightly better then the north american ones. When you factor in the shear geography that needs to be covered, its quick to discover that with the acceptance of a select few nations, the speeds are about the same.

                        I would also like to note that there is a difference in what you pay for and what you get. At the very least its $2/mbit for HE bandwidth. And HE is the shittiest of the shit. if you have a 24mbit line with no usage restrictions you are being kid out of existence. It would cost $48 a month to sustain your bandwidth usage, not to mention the cost of hardware, DSL line, naked or with phone service also? Perhaps you like technical support. ISP's like most businesses, are in business to make money.

                        All ISP's oversell, no secret there. But at least from my experiences, I have always got what i paid for. No slowdowns, always working and best of all, very low latency. I guess if i had a 100mbit connection to a major carrier and sold it of as either cable or fiber Internet service I could boast that they could theoretically achieve that 100mbit. And then sell it off to 10 people.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                          I don't agree. 24mbit connections are widespread, with 8mbit being a very common lower-bound. Since streaming 1080p H.264 can be done with 4mbit, it's already a reality.

                          720p on YouTube has nothing "extreme upper range" in it; you can watch it realtime with a 2mbit connection, and 2mbit is pretty much the lowest broadband speed you can get (and mostly you can't; lowest is 4mbit in most places.)
                          Most professionals pay metered internet rates. You generally get a flat rate for a certain amount of bandwidth and then above that you pay per MB or whatever is the agreement with your hosting provider.

                          What your talking about would be a 2mbit for one stream. What if you want to have a hundred people watching a video? A thousand people? Do the math.

                          Hulu.com's high quality stuff is 480p at ~1Mbps. If you have a hundred people view your site with 480p streams then it would be trivial for them to saturate a 100Mbs ethernet line to a internet backbone!

                          If you just average a constant rate of 1 viewer over a month your looking at 2500+ Gigabits worth of bandwidth used. Which is massively expensive.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by drag View Post
                            Most professionals pay metered internet rates. You generally get a flat rate for a certain amount of bandwidth and then above that you pay per MB or whatever is the agreement with your hosting provider.

                            What your talking about would be a 2mbit for one stream. What if you want to have a hundred people watching a video? A thousand people? Do the math.
                            But it is happening. As I said, YouTube does it.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by L33F3R View Post
                              Well im not from the united states.

                              the UK is in the same boat as the US from what people tell me, Few years back a french guy that was staying with me thought my Internet was speedy (and his family was made of money...). The aussies get shafted.... Well jeez der goes a big chunk of the developed world right there.

                              http://www.speedtest.net/global.php

                              European speeds are only slightly better then the north american ones. When you factor in the shear geography that needs to be covered, its quick to discover that with the acceptance of a select few nations, the speeds are about the same.
                              That graph actually supports my point. 6mbit seems to be the average. So targeting 2mbit (720p) seems very logical. It doesn't have to be very high quality 720p. YouTube's 720p isn't comparable with what you see in a 720p BluRay. But, it is much better than high quality 480p if you watch it in full screen. 480p gets blurry if you scale it up. It is subjective, but lossy video is always based on subjective quality perception. And that perception tells us that clear, crispy video is "better" than blurry/fuzzy video, even if it has some more artifacts.

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                              • #45
                                i never denied HD would work. I was refuting ridiculous bandwidth claims in regards to global Internet speeds.

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