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Gentoo Linux 2008.0

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  • #31
    Originally posted by aniruddha View Post
    They do recommend that for a reason, openSUSE tend to break when upgrading to a new release. You can upgrade to a new release from the DVD but even that is discouraged by the devs.
    Done properly, it goes smooth as silk. After personally doing 300+ upgrades to machines using 10.3 to 11.0 I can state that as fact. Proper preparation is the key.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Zhick View Post
      Huh? Maybe I don't understand you correctly, or maybe you really read to fast, but there's a whole lot of documentation on http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml . And pretty much everything you don't find there you'll find on http://gentoo-wiki.com/ .
      Maybe you've never actually USED the wiki. It's completely outdated - so much it causes more harm than good (try using it for radeon drivers or (lm_sensors). My first experience with Gentoo was a few days ago. I personally love the distro, but I must be honest: Between FreeBSD, Slackware, and other "expert" distros, Gentoo has by far the worst documentation. It's scattered all over hell, and most known issues aren't centralized, but rather found by google showing you some random forum page where one user helped another.

      Having said all that, I will be going right back to Gentoo as soon as I can install it.

      (Currently the LiveCD installer is broken, which is yet again ANOTHER issue. You would think they would have tested it seeing how the installer for beta2 was broken as well.)

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      • #33
        I bet I'm riding the wave of the bleeding edginess better on Sidux than you guys on Gentoo

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        • #34
          Originally posted by sundown View Post
          I bet I'm riding the wave of the bleeding edginess better on Sidux than you guys on Gentoo
          A Debian Sid LiveCD is bleeding edge? I think perhaps this word does not mean what you think it means.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Forge View Post
            A Debian Sid LiveCD is bleeding edge? I think perhaps this word does not mean what you think it means.
            It's called a livecd but you install it, of course and constantly update against sid in a safe and most sweetest way. It's a lot more easier then going through any compiling headaches, so yeah, I call that bleeding edge given that packages in sid are developed very fast.

            Most people don't need to run the latest RC kernels anyways, so it bleeds enough for me
            Last edited by sundown; 07-07-2008, 03:15 PM.

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            • #36
              Normal Gentoo ("arch") is damn stable. From my previous experiences, I'd put it with Etch.

              Gentoo testing ("~arch") is, by and large, comparable to Lenny.

              That's about where the straight comparisons end. You can mix "arch" with "~arch" on a per-package basis. You can unmask packages that would be perfectly suited in Sid. You can run *-9999 ebuilds that grab current-to-the-day source code snapshots.

              Gentoo bleeds as much as it's root is crazy. And I love it for that. But an AthlonXP 2600+ is not the place for it (upgrade coming hopefully this fall).

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
                Maybe you've never actually USED the wiki. It's completely outdated - so much it causes more harm than good (try using it for radeon drivers or (lm_sensors). My first experience with Gentoo was a few days ago. I personally love the distro, but I must be honest: Between FreeBSD, Slackware, and other "expert" distros, Gentoo has by far the worst documentation. It's scattered all over hell, and most known issues aren't centralized, but rather found by google showing you some random forum page where one user helped another.

                Having said all that, I will be going right back to Gentoo as soon as I can install it.

                (Currently the LiveCD installer is broken, which is yet again ANOTHER issue. You would think they would have tested it seeing how the installer for beta2 was broken as well.)
                first of all, i have actively maintained several parts of the wiki, and i must say i don't agree with your opinion about the outdatedness. Sure, the wiki has some (a lot of) articles which need updating. But most work without updating, or contain obvious outdated facts which the geeks which gentoo is intended for can easily spot and fix.
                Secondly, the guide on both radeon and lm_sensors is, in my experience, up to date.
                Thirdly, it's not like other linux distros have better documentation, considering the target users of gentoo. I found debian's and ubuntu's to be way, WAY more outdated and broken back when i used them (respectively 2 and 1 years ago). Ubuntu's wiki is indeed slowly fixing this, but I don't think gentoo is "by far" worse than ubuntu or slackware.

                Finally, it's not like the installer is actually supposed to work. If you need an installer, don't use gentoo. Gentoo is to be installed manually, period. The installer is broken and it should be.

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                • #38
                  Finally, it's not like the installer is actually supposed to work. If you need an installer, don't use gentoo. Gentoo is to be installed manually, period. The installer is broken and it should be.
                  Amen to that!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jeffro-tull View Post
                    But an AthlonXP 2600+ is not the place for it (upgrade coming hopefully this fall).
                    I run Gentoo on it! It's incredibly fast! Boot in 22 seconds, shutdown in 5 seconds, and Apps are all fast enough. I just compile when I don't use it!

                    You cannot play games with it... except Warcraft3 and Diablo2 the only ones I used to play

                    An AthlonXP 2600+ is still a good choice for a linux box, even (or maybe "in particular"?) for gentoo

                    And what about distcc? with it even older machines can run gentoo, maybe running enlightenment. I can bet it!

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                    • #40
                      first of all, i have actively maintained several parts of the wiki, and i must say i don't agree with your opinion about the outdatedness. Sure, the wiki has some (a lot of) articles which need updating. But most work without updating, or contain obvious outdated facts which the geeks which gentoo is intended for can easily spot and fix.
                      First of all, I'm far from a newbie. The problem is, a lot of linux users think being for experts means not needing any proper documentation, or not being expected to function properly

                      Secondly, the guide on both radeon and lm_sensors is, in my experience, up to date.
                      Thirdly, it's not like other linux distros have better documentation, considering the target users of gentoo. I found debian's and ubuntu's to be way, WAY more outdated and broken back when i used them (respectively 2 and 1 years ago). Ubuntu's wiki is indeed slowly fixing this, but I don't think gentoo is "by far" worse than ubuntu or slackware.
                      Key phrase: to your experience. The problem with a lot of Linux users in general is they never actually attempt to follow something from beginning to end before they tell you it's nothing wrong with it's functionality. I tend do do this quite often (in numerous distros), and I ask myself if I didn't already know most of how something work would the documentation be useful. Go back, do a clean install, and attempt to do it by only following the directions. You'll find yourself wandering around in circles.

                      Finally, it's not like the installer is actually supposed to work. If you need an installer, don't use gentoo. Gentoo is to be installed manually, period. The installer is broken and it should be.
                      While I understand your perspective, that last statement is just downright ridiculous. If it's not supposed to work, then why go tthrough the trouble of creating it? You don't think you're being a little fanatical? The installer may not be FOR YOU, but it's there for a reason. Many people like myself use Gentoo for the packaging system. That's not uncommon, as it's the same reason many people use FreeBSD or Debian. To be honest, you sound elitest and closed minded, and your attitude is the exact image a lot of OSS projects are trying to distance themselves from (at least publically)
                      Last edited by Joe Sixpack; 07-07-2008, 06:07 PM.

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                      • #41
                        On suse from 11.0+ upgrading should be this simple:
                        - Point the repos to the newer versions
                        - Run
                        Code:
                        su
                        zypper ref
                        zypper dup
                        and a restart.
                        Done

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                        • #42
                          I run Gentoo on it! It's incredibly fast! Boot in 22 seconds, shutdown in 5 seconds, and Apps are all fast enough. I just compile when I don't use it!

                          ....

                          And what about distcc?
                          ah, no thanks. For one, it takes me a solid three days to get KDE4 running from /trunk. And it takes a fair amount of time compiling to maintain just that. For two, this rig is far and away the most powerful one in the household. FAR and away. distcc isn't really worth the effort. And besides, the only issues I have running openSUSE 11.0 on this are with my GeForce 6200. Everything else is just fine by me.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
                            [...]
                            While I understand your perspective, that last statement is just downright ridiculous. If it's not supposed to work, then why go tthrough the trouble of creating it? You don't think you're being a little fanatical? The installer may not be FOR YOU, but it's there for a reason. Many people like myself use Gentoo for the packaging system. That's not uncommon, as it's the same reason many people use FreeBSD or Debian. To be honest, you sound elitest and closed minded, and your attitude is the exact image a lot of OSS projects are trying to distance themselves from (at least publically)
                            Please remind me why projects like Exherbo and paludis are starting to get so much attention (especially from the gentoo community) again. Oh, that's true! Because they are not for noobs. Maybe I sound elitist, I don't care. Maybe I sound closed minded, but that doesn't matter as long as my argument is valid (if not, tell me why instead of whining about my personality).
                            The installer is there for a reason, which is that the project was once started, never completed, but still there because some people might be interested. Okay, I agree that it's not in the place where it should be. I think it should simply be kept off public LiveCDs/LiveDVDs. If you want it, build your own live cd, or go and use a different distro which does support a good installer.

                            Having said this, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say gentoo should be for elitist, nor am I trying to say the LiveCD devs are idiots (which they (generally ) are not). It's just that a lot of people in this world are complaining about not having everything ready for them, out of the box in a plastic bag. Why don't you just read up on things before you use them, as is good practice in the science world?

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                            • #44
                              I didn't thought my post would lead to such a debate.
                              I absolutely agree that Gentoo is rock-stable when used on stable arch. I also agree @ 200% that the documentation, even if there are some parts that could be outdated, is very complete, precise and accurate.
                              No, the only thing is that when I made my upgrades, I always experimented troubles (GCC upgrade that fails, setup of udev,...) that were mainly not warned. So, as you can't read all the stuff for the 500 packages that will be emerged for a world update, you go for the update.
                              After the compilation of the package #152, you get a compile break, with a non-understanble warning message. As you are in the middle of a world update, you generally can't launch KDE/Gnome anymore, so you have to post you help request in the forums using links.I have always been able to finally find the necessary help in the forums / in the wiki at the end, but it's annoying that there is no particular warning message before the compilation breaks.
                              I know this would be impossible, but I'd like to see a documentation page sayingwhat packages are introduced since the last official release and what is expected to be done for compiling flawlessly.
                              I always sticked to the official releases for upgrading world, in order to avoid to the maximum those kind of troubles.

                              I hope I'm clear enough in what I described here. It's not that Gentoo is badly or outdately documented. It's just a matter of how the official upgrades are warned.

                              And, once again, it's not for offending anyone here that I'm posting that. It's really for giving the point of view of and end-user, that don't know anything in C coding or those kind of things, but who'd like to use a razor-sharp-tuned distro (and who therefore won't switch to ubuntu ).
                              Last edited by Fixxer_Linux; 07-08-2008, 08:34 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Maybe I sound elitist, I don't care. Maybe I sound closed minded, but that doesn't matter as long as my argument is valid (if not, tell me why instead of whining about my personality)
                                I've been around long enough to know all about people like you. You think using a the distro that's the hardest to install somehow makes you smarter or better than the average computer user. The sad part is, you don't even deny it. It's 2008 - Linux users like you are in the vast minority, and that "Computer Machismo" crap is lame.

                                Okay, I agree that it's not in the place where it should be. I think it should simply be kept off public LiveCDs/LiveDVDs.
                                Tell you why your point isn't valid? You just conceded my point. I think your logic and reasoning skills get blinded by your arrogance from time to time.

                                If you want it, build your own live cd, or go and use a different distro which does support a good installer.
                                And we're back to 2003... "If it doesn't work, fix it yourself" FYI: This is why even a lot of "command line" linux users have switched to Ubuntu. Not just because it works, but because of their accountability. If something is broken, they feel like they're expected to fix it, as opposed to the "Oh well, it's just experimental anyways" line of thinking. The funny part of that is, had the new feature/function actually worked properly, both the devs and the community would be boasting about it. When it falls flat it's always "well it's not really intended for use anyways".

                                Having said this, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say gentoo should be for elitist...
                                But you just said you don't care if you sound elitest. I guess at this point you're beginning to sober up and be reasonable.

                                It's just that a lot of people in this world are complaining about not having everything ready for them, out of the box in a plastic bag.
                                And now the emotional baggage is exposed... At what point did I say things should work out of the box? If something is broken, it's BROKEN!!!! No excuses. To lack functionality is one thing, as that can be expected. To have it and it not work properly is entirely different. You're taking your frustration out from other people on me, assuming that I'm some brain dead Windows user just because I wanted to use the LiveCD.

                                Why don't you just read up on things before you use them, as is good practice in the science world?
                                Exactly what didn't I read? How would I know the radeon and lm_sensors wiki are out of date if I didn't read them first? Again, you assumed I was a noob and that I didn't read anything - both of which are untrue. You spent so much of your post ranting about nonsense you didn't stop to think. Read your own words man - you're all over the place.
                                Last edited by Joe Sixpack; 07-08-2008, 11:41 AM.

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