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Deepin 2014 Linux Distribution Released

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  • Deepin 2014 Linux Distribution Released

    Phoronix: Deepin 2014 Linux Distribution Released

    This weekend marks the release of Deepin 2014...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTczNTU

  • #2
    I have to admit i like the design, it has the simplistic feel of gnome 3 without leaving all desktop design paradigments of the last 20 years behind.

    Though i fully intent to test it in a virtual machine ... Pity its based on Ubuntu, i vastly prefer rolling release distros these days.
    Might be nice for the linux machines i maintain for friends and family though, simplistic and static is real good there.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
      Though i fully intent to test it in a virtual machine ... Pity its based on Ubuntu, i vastly prefer rolling release distros these days.
      Do you use any rolling release distro apart from Arch or Gentoo and their derivatives? Frankly, there aren't many options out there. Also, I don't count Debian Sid or LMDE to be rolling release.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by a2r-l View Post
        Do you use any rolling release distro apart from Arch or Gentoo and their derivatives? Frankly, there aren't many options out there. Also, I don't count Debian Sid or LMDE to be rolling release.
        I remember reading about turning OpenSUSE into rolling release through a few simple steps, though I never got around to trying it. It is called Tumbleweed if I recall correctly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kaprikawn View Post
          I remember reading about turning OpenSUSE into rolling release through a few simple steps, though I never got around to trying it. It is called Tumbleweed if I recall correctly.
          Tumbleweed is similar to Fedora Rawhide, if I am not mistaken, i.e., not exactly a conventional rolling release distro.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by a2r-l View Post
            Tumbleweed is similar to Fedora Rawhide, if I am not mistaken, i.e., not exactly a conventional rolling release distro.
            Nope, it's a rolling release. Fedora Rawhide equals openSUSE Factory.
            You just need to switch your repositories to the tumbleweed version and run zypper dup.

            http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by droste View Post
              Nope, it's a rolling release. Fedora Rawhide equals openSUSE Factory.
              Interesting. I didn't know about Factory.
              You just need to switch your repositories to the tumbleweed version and run zypper dup.

              http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed
              Reading the Tumbleweed documentation at the link you provided, it seems that they don't provide (frequent?) updates to properietry graphics drivers, at least.

              So all in all, in my opinion, based on the ease of use and number of constraints, there is no better option for a rolling release distro than Arch Linux.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, lets get a few things out of the way so we don't talk circles around this.

                1. There is a difference between a rolling release distro, a semi rolling release distro and a rolling package repository.
                2. All the big distros have a rolling package repo or even several, Fedora calls it Rawhide, SuSE calls it Factory, debian calls it experimental etc. Its not meant to be tracked as such by endusers though atleast Fedora and Opensuse are working on making it more stable via more intelligent autobuilders and stuff i think. Its where stuff ends up after it compiles but before maintainers have figured out how and when(sometimes if) its going into the distro. If you make a snapshot of it at any time there is no guarantee it all adds up to a working system at all, though individual packages more often than not will work.
                3. A true rolling release is very difficult to put together in a stable manner, its not something that can be done by a couple guys in their spare time. Only very few Distros have the necessary community/dev power to even entertain it, lets call em the big 5.


                Examples of true rolling release:
                Arch, Gentoo

                No real concept of version numbers, repository gets changed daily and packages are added/updated independently of each other as upstream releases them.

                Examples of semi rolling distros:
                LMDE, Debian testing/sid, SolidXK etc.

                They have some kind of versioning going on. Update packs for LMDE, packages intended for debian x+1 for testing etc. Its not upstream thats setting the pace, but the needs/intentions of the distro.

                Examples of rolling repos:
                Tumbleweed opensuse, rpmfusion for fedora, various PPA thingies for ubuntu etc.

                They are not distributions, but more of a addon pack thats rolling a certain selection of packages on a normal version serving as basis. For example Tumbleweed rolls kernels, and some other packages without too many dependencies, but refuses to track mesa because it would pull in to much.


                If you want rolling release you should use either Gentoo, Arch or a derivative for best experience. Anything else your going to see compromises. Tumbleweed is an excellent example, no propriety drivers, recent kernel but no recent mesa. LMDE for another example still hasn't updated to recent cinnamon/mate thats been out for months, because they want to deliver it as a UP. Even tracking rawhide or factory won't help because they don't include propriety modules for kernel nor even the option to receive them as an addon, also they have a different focus, aiming to support the next release, not provide you a hasslefree upgrade procedure.

                At the end of the day there are actually very few basic distros that you can choose from. Maybe call them chassis. We have Opensuse(SLES), Debian(Ubuntu), Fedora(RedHat), Gentoo, Arch. The rest are flavours or exotics(well except maybe magaia, not sure if they warrant being their own chassi though...). Doesn't mean they are bad, just not as big. And big matters. Alot. Most obviously with Security advisories and LTE support, testing and own infrastructure like portage tree, OBS or creating and maintaining their own package software.

                Some Distros people perceive as "big" really are not. Linux Mint for example, is Ubuntu + Cinnamon/Mate(oversimplification), while ubuntu is Debian + upstart/unity(again oversimplification). They can add really cool things because they have time to work on them due to someone else doing all the boring maintenance work(like actually having a maintainer or several for every package in your distro). Its called focus and its one of the things making linux successful. You can spin that even farther, google was able to create android due to it, apple did iOS and Mac OSX due to it etc.

                At the end of the day, whats left of a FotM distribution is just a fancy configuration, a dozen recompiled packages and maybe a fancy new desktop in its infancy.


                TL;DR:
                Just use Gentoo or Arch(or derivative) if you really want a rolling release. Its not as if there is one you overlooked and didn't notice till now. Making a rolling release distro from scratch doesn't just happen overnight and basing it on a non rolling distribution will lead to odd pauses(release freezes) and missing packages(no recent systemd/gnome in debian sid even due to internal goals).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by a2r-l View Post
                  Reading the Tumbleweed documentation at the link you provided, it seems that they don't provide (frequent?) updates to properietry graphics drivers, at least.

                  So all in all, in my opinion, based on the ease of use and number of constraints, there is no better option for a rolling release distro than Arch Linux.
                  Well you could of course just use the open source drivers :P But yeah if you depend on proprietary drivers through a repository openSUSE Tumbleweed is probably not the best choice.

                  Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
                  1. There is a difference between a rolling release distro, a semi rolling release distro and a rolling package repository.
                  2. All the big distros have a rolling package repo or even several, Fedora calls it Rawhide, SuSE calls it Factory, debian calls it experimental etc. Its not meant to be tracked as such by endusers though atleast Fedora and Opensuse are working on making it more stable via more intelligent autobuilders and stuff i think. Its where stuff ends up after it compiles but before maintainers have figured out how and when(sometimes if) its going into the distro. If you make a snapshot of it at any time there is no guarantee it all adds up to a working system at all, though individual packages more often than not will work.
                  3. A true rolling release is very difficult to put together in a stable manner, its not something that can be done by a couple guys in their spare time. Only very few Distros have the necessary community/dev power to even entertain it, lets call em the big 5.
                  So what again makes a rolling release a "true" rolling release? And why is openSUSE Tumbleweed not "true"?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by droste View Post
                    Well you could of course just use the open source drivers :P But yeah if you depend on proprietary drivers through a repository openSUSE Tumbleweed is probably not the best choice.



                    So what again makes a rolling release a "true" rolling release? And why is openSUSE Tumbleweed not "true"?
                    Opensource drivers with mesa 9.x? Have fun with that. You would be more recent just adding the xorg repo to your normal 13.1 install, which doesn't support tumbleweed.

                    Tumbleweed isn't a true rolling release because its just a addon repository to your 13.1 opensuse distro. Its like adding a ppa to ubuntu and calling it a rolling release. For example 4 days after 13.1 came out installed it and switched to tumbleweed, there was nothing in it at that time. Then they started adding a package here and there, but it was always based on 13.1, just a few updates.

                    Which brings me to what a "true" rolling release is, a true RR isn't based on adding updates to a normal release distro. Because if you do that you are constrained by the limits of the release plan of the point distro or risk changing so many packages that you loose compatibility and essentially become a fork because it becomes too hard to backport the changes of their next point release. For example even Debian Sid only contains gnome 3.8, yet its meant to be unstable, i.e. rather bleeding edge. Thats because its constrained by the release cycle of stable debian.

                    A true RR also doesn't release packages as update packs every few months, which if you think about it is just a shorter release cycle than a normal distro. A true RR adds packages as they come in from upstream on their own merits, i.e. stable enough or not, integrated in distro or not. If f.e. systemd releases a new version and its compiling/running fine it gets added, same for kernel, DEs or browsers. Packages don't wait on each other as there is no concept of packages belonging together besides actual dependencies. These distros also tend to have a really tiny base system, and no "default" package sets for desktop users since the versions and dependencies in the repositories tend to change so fast that its safer and cleaner to calculate them anew for every installation.


                    At the end of the day, normal distros are pictures that get redrawn every release, while RR distros tend to be puzzles where you get each piece redrawn and replaced individually. Things like Tumbleweed or even LMDE only focus on a part of the picture and replace that again and again. Besides that I guess the main difference is in the mindset that goes into choosing which package gets updated when, or even wether it gets updated at all.
                    Last edited by SebastianB; 07-12-2014, 05:48 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
                      Opensource drivers with mesa 9.x? Have fun with that. You would be more recent just adding the xorg repo to your normal 13.1 install, which doesn't support tumbleweed.
                      Rolling release is not about having the most recent... It's about getting updates from time to time per package do not have to do a full upgrade every x months. If you want the most recent stuff add the factory repositories.

                      Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
                      Tumbleweed isn't a true rolling release because its just a addon repository to your 13.1 opensuse distro. Its like adding a ppa to ubuntu and calling it a rolling release. For example 4 days after 13.1 came out installed it and switched to tumbleweed, there was nothing in it at that time. Then they started adding a package here and there, but it was always based on 13.1, just a few updates.
                      Same answer as above.

                      Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
                      Which brings me to what a "true" rolling release is, a true RR isn't based on adding updates to a normal release distro. Because if you do that you are constrained by the limits of the release plan of the point distro or risk changing so many packages that you loose compatibility and essentially become a fork because it becomes too hard to backport the changes of their next point release. For example even Debian Sid only contains gnome 3.8, yet its meant to be unstable, i.e. rather bleeding edge. Thats because its constrained by the release cycle of stable debian.

                      A true RR also doesn't release packages as update packs every few months, which if you think about it is just a shorter release cycle than a normal distro. A true RR adds packages as they come in from upstream on their own merits, i.e. stable enough or not, integrated in distro or not. If f.e. systemd releases a new version and its compiling/running fine it gets added, same for kernel, DEs or browsers. Packages don't wait on each other as there is no concept of packages belonging together besides actual dependencies. These distros also tend to have a really tiny base system, and no "default" package sets for desktop users since the versions and dependencies in the repositories tend to change so fast that its safer and cleaner to calculate them anew for every installation.
                      If a rolling release distro adds unstable stuff they're doing it wrong. That's the point of a rolling release distro, to have continous updates of stable releases. See first answer.

                      Originally posted by SebastianB View Post
                      At the end of the day, normal distros are pictures that get redrawn every release, while RR distros tend to be puzzles where you get each piece redrawn and replaced individually. Things like Tumbleweed or even LMDE only focus on a part of the picture and replace that again and again. Besides that I guess the main difference is in the mindset that goes into choosing which package gets updated when, or even wether it gets updated at all.
                      I'm not saying that openSUSE Tumbleweed does the same as Arch or others do, but that doesn't mean it's not a rolling release distro.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling...#SUSE-related:
                      By default openSUSE, and most of its derivatives, are not rolling releases since openSUSE has stable fixed releases and developmental milestone releases, as well as a development branch and testing repository called 'Factory'. However, openSUSE and compatible derivatives become rolling releases when pointed at the openSUSE Tumbleweed rolling repository instead of the default repository.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by droste View Post
                        Rolling release is not about having the most recent... It's about getting updates from time to time per package do not have to do a full upgrade every x months. If you want the most recent stuff add the factory repositories.



                        Same answer as above.



                        If a rolling release distro adds unstable stuff they're doing it wrong. That's the point of a rolling release distro, to have continous updates of stable releases. See first answer.



                        I'm not saying that openSUSE Tumbleweed does the same as Arch or others do, but that doesn't mean it's not a rolling release distro.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling...#SUSE-related:
                        Sorry but did you really understand what we are talking about? Tumbleweed isn't even a distro, it's a update repository to Suse. The problem isn't even that it doesn't offer new versions of Mesa, KDE, gnome, grub etc, it doesn't contain them at all.

                        Also the stability of updates doesn't even come into it, not every distro aims to be rock stable. But at the very least a RR should contain all packages needed to built a distro and have them roll in some manner, and Tumbleweed just doesn't. It doesn't even contain packages intended for the next Suse version, that's factory. Which is also why you can't remove your current 13.1 repositories when using it. Cause that's where most of your packages come from.

                        Calling a package repository like Tumbleweed a RR distro, or even just a distro, is just plain rude to all the people doing work on actual distros. Cause there is more to running a distro than updating a few packages.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Correction, Tumbleweed actually contains kde and gnome. Don't want to slight it, but it still lacks many base packages needed to make it a full distro. That's simply not it's scope.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's not a single repository and I have no repository that's saying "13.1":


                            I don't have to change my repositories to get the new stuff (well virtualbox from time to time, but it's not an official one) and I've done this for years now.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by droste View Post
                              It's not a single repository and I have no repository that's saying "13.1":


                              I don't have to change my repositories to get the new stuff (well virtualbox from time to time, but it's not an official one) and I've done this for years now.
                              The opensuse:stable stuff are symlinks to the most recent repos, i.e. 13.1. The real update to your system happens when that changes from 13.1 to 13.2. Its like having stable instead of wheezy on a debian system in the sources.list.

                              I.e. http://download.opensuse.org/distrib...-current/repo/ is the same as http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/13.1/repo/ .

                              What you have enabled there essentiall are:

                              13.1 OSS
                              13.1 non-oss
                              13.1 update
                              13.1 update non-oss
                              Tumbleweed

                              If you remove those 13.1 repos everything will fall apart because many packages on your system are not contained in the rest.

                              Edit: Which means your system is semi rolling, the part in Tumble rolls, the part thats from 13.1 repos gets pulled in as a normal distro upgrade.

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