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  • #16
    Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
    - default desktop comes with singular most useless DE for any developer where applications are as powerful as most phone apps and still degrading?
    Useless for you, you mean, because of your dislike of Gnome Shell past 3.6.
    - DE HIG and application HIG clashes in so many ways it is not possible to imagine in worst Hall of Shame ( sadly, this starts making sense http://interfacehallofshame.eu/www.i....com/shame.htm more than F.N)
    Have you tried them before jumping to the conclusion?
    - DE takes care to slow developer down as much as possible with useless functions that look cool in some morons head
    Thanks a lot for insulting some professional users running on that DE showing down. Now, have you paid these desktop environments developers to do these tasks? No?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
      ok, that must be joke, lol. Gnome... OS? dear god, how is that supposed to work? in order to have OS you need more than note taker and few useless applications. gnome obviously doesn't want those since their HIG and desktop specs are taken right out from their ass. as it is now, you can't even run gnome software under anything else than gnome without complete WTF? and running anything else in gnome feels obvious like ET in strip joint. i wouldn't imagine my apps respecting one single Gnome HIG nonsense, way off applications like LibreOffice, Chrome or Firefox

      btw, don't keep your hopes up. Fedora users are declining rapidly and with their last incentive to distance other desktops declining will be even faster. damn lot of fedora users are flocking to korora, but, i sense that will be just temporary
      About GNOME OS, it is just an idea.
      Well I don't care much what distro is under the hood as long as it is new, stable and offers pure GNOME experience. I think that KDE looks bloated, crowded and ugly but I don't participate in subjects about KDE because I don't care. Hatred is not good for anyone. If you don't like it, ignore it, it is not for you. Let them enjoy. I only care about things I like and about things that make me happy. Why do we need to have useless and ugly space-wasting titlebars for decades in every single OS in The Universe? Why do we need a start button with a little menu in the corner of the screen? Is it written in the Bible? I like innovation and experimentation. I'm sure that hundreds of years from now operating systems will look and behave radically different. The sooner the better. I don't want a free replica of Windows. I want something exciting and original that has been rethought from the ground up. Traditional desktops are getting boring. GNOME 3 is a huge success! I always like to see what are they going to do next.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by strcat View Post
        It's not kept in a usable state. It's not even as stable as the Arch Linux testing repositories because it's treated as a staging ground.
        That's putting it rather too strongly. I've been running Rawhide on my desktop since F20 was released. There are several other Fedora devs who do this, and we keep at least the bits we use working pretty well.

        It's not a stable release, and I wouldn't recommend most people use it, but saying it's 'not in a usable state' is going too far.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
          Fedora rather needs something like the Arch User Repository. I always felt like software availability and discovery is especially bad on Fedora. Nobody wants to hunt down RPMs and RPM Fusion just dosen't cut it. I don't want to look in a thousand places to find my stuff. On Arch if it's not in place A (official repos) it's in place B (AUR) and it's nice centralized, searchable, you can leave comments, vote, get notified about future comments, super easy to contribute and install software from.
          http://copr.fedoraproject.org/

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          • #20
            Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
            so, they'll destroy 20 too, then. time to find another distro even before .next hits i guess. and it is really sad when this happens after being faithful user for 20 releases into evolution. mind i was also avid gnome user until 3.6

            as much as i was enthusiastic about Fedora.Next on first information, initial hype in me started dying when i dug more into it. even just watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOFud4cgtV0 or reading mailing lists speaks enough. no matter how much they pretend to be community distro, one thing is sure as hell, they don't don't care what community wants, period. even in video, talker tries to initiate community feedback, where it does nothing but saying "nah, we know better" or "we don't care about that". same as fscked up gnome mentality

            and here is food for thought if any Fedora.Next involved person reads it, coz i'd really want to hear answer. it is said that Workstation should be developers desktop. so, how come....
            - default desktop comes with singular most useless DE for any developer where applications are as powerful as most phone apps and still degrading?
            - DE HIG and application HIG clashes in so many ways it is not possible to imagine in worst Hall of Shame ( sadly, this starts making sense http://interfacehallofshame.eu/www.i....com/shame.htm more than F.N)
            - DE takes care to slow developer down as much as possible with useless functions that look cool in some morons head

            Fedora is really going Canonical way. Canonical has CLA, Fedora has "can't hear ya". hell, even Canonical realized some ideas might not be as good as imagined http://arstechnica.com/information-t...ation-windows/

            p.s. i hope it's obvious why F.N. won't see my computer and this will provide some food for thougt
            too troll; didn't read

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            • #21
              Originally posted by strcat View Post
              Rawhide will often be tracking the development releases of the version that's eventually going to land in the stable release, so you're exposed to more upstream problems. Most projects still lack good test suites or don't do any testing at all, and the churn of the development branches/releases is painful. The Linux kernel is a pretty good example... hardware-specific regressions are common because it would be very hard to test everything, and it's nice to let other people find these for you in the earlier release candidates and first stable release .

              Arch's testing repositories only get the latest stable release of GNOME and the kernel, with the first or second point release being the one moved to the stable repositories. Unstable releases are released a separate gnome-unstable repository. It's not an enormous difference, but I do run into far fewer issues in Arch compared to Debian Sid (probably due to heavy patching) and Rawhide.
              There usually aren't many interdependencies between the kernel and the running system. It's usually reasonably OK to run a Rawhide kernel on the current stable release if you want to try a new kernel, or the current stable release kernel on Rawhide if you have a problem with the dev kernel. There are exceptions, and you probably can't go nuts and run 3.2 on Rawhide or something, but broadly speaking it's viable.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                Useless for you, you mean, because of your dislike of Gnome Shell past 3.6.
                yep, that is when insanity started. they basically started crapping on every other DE and crapping on everything but gnome at that point. hell, even Gtk only has future in fork for non gnome people.

                Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                Have you tried them before jumping to the conclusion?
                no shit sherlock. part of my job is evaluation for next corporate desktop, where plan was in motion for quite a while. originally, it was decided to be gnome3. but, after post 3.6 insanity where everything breaks and goes bellow phone app usability, no one (users) wants to hear gnome anymore. it basically set up whole thing back on planning board and put in question whole linux plan simply because if desktop can break so badly in .x releases, wtf happens on full version?

                Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                Thanks a lot for insulting some professional users running on that DE showing down. Now, have you paid these desktop environments developers to do these tasks? No?
                actually, yea. not only do i have few RHEL subscriptions my self (not that i need them, i wanted to give back some), i'm also working on migrating +100 people company on linux, where big part is played on few (now) gtk apps that have to run on all big 3 platforms just in case. move with one most crucial condition, there must be commercial support. while second is good multilingual support, where shell fails in cataclysmic proportions unless one goes into trouble of extensions.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by AdamW View Post
                  too troll; didn't read
                  you wanted to prove my point about fedora "can't hear ya" and "we know better"? #.#' watch video i posted link for and then figure out why fedora is losing people. whole FOSDEM session could be summarised in "please, give us feedback" and "lalalala, we know better so stfu pleaser".

                  FYI, me and most friends were running fedora from start. more or less we all moved to korora. but, based on how F.N. is moving that will probably change too since for ?community? project you're damn picky on what community is

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                  • #24
                    Fedora is too cliquish, and doesn't really want outsiders views.

                    I was at flock where a lot of f.N was hammered out, and I like the idea, but I really don't like how they seem to ignore other voices. Unless you are a well known contributor, or a bombastic troll you simply get ignored even if no one is addressing your concerns. That has me worried. ...and they wonder how to increase the signal to noise ratio amongst the community... In short, if you want them to address your point, you apparently need to be an unsocial ass. Simply commenting in thread after thread does nothing.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by liam View Post
                      I was at flock where a lot of f.N was hammered out, and I like the idea, but I really don't like how they seem to ignore other voices. Unless you are a well known contributor, or a bombastic troll you simply get ignored even if no one is addressing your concerns. That has me worried. ...and they wonder how to increase the signal to noise ratio amongst the community... In short, if you want them to address your point, you apparently need to be an unsocial ass. Simply commenting in thread after thread does nothing.
                      I read all your posts to desktop@ (I'm assuming you're Liam Bulkley, here). You seemed to be working from a basis that GNOME is "touch inspired and consumption-focused", which it really isn't, which makes it hard to put a lot of stock in the conclusions you drew from there. (I'm one of about three people actually using GNOME on a touch device at present, and if you do that, it's painfully obvious it's not based around touch *at all*). It's designed to be *distraction free*, which is as important to engineers as anyone. I work on Fedora all day long, and I find GNOME 3 the best environment in which to do it. I don't need a *complex* desktop environment to do productive engineering work, because the desktop itself is not what you use to do productive work. It's a framework that, for me at least, works best when it's as unobtrusive as possible.

                      You didn't make any concrete suggestions that I can see - the closest I can see is "What I would like to see is Fedora's designers look at any perceived problems in G3's DESIGN and propose some solutions." and "I see no reason why Fedora can't address some of the design short comings of Gnome that Gnome developers won't really touch.", but that's still pretty vague. It's also kind of a dead letter, because AFAIK, all the most active Fedora design team members are actually active in GNOME design as well.

                      So, it's not particularly surprising that your emails got a muted response. I don't like the word 'meritocracy' (because F/OSS projects rarely really are pure meritocracies, if they're being honest with themselves, and even when they are they have biased entry criteria which is a huge problem in itself, but let's not get into that), but you shouldn't expect your views to be acted upon or even responded to *just because you post them*, in the context of a major project like Fedora.next: people have to find them interesting / useful / compelling. I know this sounds harsh, but...it's kind of the truth. (note: I'm not on the desktop WG, this is not An Official Voice talking to you. Just my interpretation.)

                      also, on a purely practical level, your quoting style makes it very difficult to figure out which bits of your post are yours, and which bits are quotes. This may be a bug in your client (phone?) - it looks like maybe it can't quote flowed paragraphs correctly.

                      What kind of a response to your emails were you expecting, in an ideal case?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Death of Fedora, Long Live Fedora!

                        Originally posted by justmy2cents;399758as much as i was enthusiastic about Fedora.Next on first information, initial hype in me started dying when i dug more into it. even just watching [url
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOFud4cgtV0[/url]
                        All the arguments in that YouTube video addressed a 'why are we shrinking' comment not 'what do you think of the change.' The change is to get more application developers and I agree with the assessment that Fedora is currently a production preview release of upstream.

                        It has always appeared to me that since Fedora typically directs bug reports upstream, you'd be better to contribute directly to the main project instead of Fedora. In this regard, no change is going to promote more Fedora developers because they're heading upstream. It may however encourage more developers to use Fedora.

                        Lastly, I don't understand having issues with Gnome 3. It's significantly faster (Super,g,e,Enter = gedit; Super,t,e,Enter=terminal) than anything else I've used and the extensions are a lot better than the Gnome 2 way of running a bunch of small applications with windows consuming space on the screen and taskbar.

                        At the 43:00 mark, I was surprised that the KDE user didn't recognize that a KDE-only integration isn't nearly as complete as the Gnome-only integration and configuration utilities like policycoreutils-gui don't have a KDE counterpart. A Fedora.next Workstation that primarily uses KDE is going to have to have the gnome libraries installed to do basic configuration anyway.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
                          I read all your posts to desktop@ (I'm assuming you're Liam Bulkley, here). You seemed to be working from a basis that GNOME is "touch inspired and consumption-focused", which it really isn't, which makes it hard to put a lot of stock in the conclusions you drew from there. (I'm one of about three people actually using GNOME on a touch device at present, and if you do that, it's painfully obvious it's not based around touch *at all*). It's designed to be *distraction free*, which is as important to engineers as anyone. I work on Fedora all day long, and I find GNOME 3 the best environment in which to do it. I don't need a *complex* desktop environment to do productive engineering work, because the desktop itself is not what you use to do productive work. It's a framework that, for me at least, works best when it's as unobtrusive as possible. You didn't make any concrete suggestions that I can see - the closest I can see is "What I would like to see is Fedora's designers look at any perceived problems in G3's DESIGN and propose some solutions." and "I see no reason why Fedora can't address some of the design short comings of Gnome that Gnome developers won't really touch.", but that's still pretty vague. It's also kind of a dead letter, because AFAIK, all the most active Fedora design team members are actually active in GNOME design as well. So, it's not particularly surprising that your emails got a muted response. I don't like the word 'meritocracy' (because F/OSS projects rarely really are pure meritocracies, if they're being honest with themselves, and even when they are they have biased entry criteria which is a huge problem in itself, but let's not get into that), but you shouldn't expect your views to be acted upon or even responded to *just because you post them*, in the context of a major project like Fedora.next: people have to find them interesting / useful / compelling. I know this sounds harsh, but...it's kind of the truth. (note: I'm not on the desktop WG, this is not An Official Voice talking to you. Just my interpretation.) also, on a purely practical level, your quoting style makes it very difficult to figure out which bits of your post are yours, and which bits are quotes. This may be a bug in your client (phone?) - it looks like maybe it can't quote flowed paragraphs correctly. What kind of a response to your emails were you expecting, in an ideal case?
                          First, I just found out that many of my emails weren't being received by the list since my client (gmail) sent them from my work address (yay!). I've since re-sent them, but, since some of them go back to feb 11, I don't expect to generate much comment. While I would certainly agree that GS is very consumer centric (the design is optimized for full-screen usage, they focus on building "basic apps", ) I wouldn't say it was designed for the touchscreen (though they certainly have had touchscreens in mind going back to the GS design document). I know you've recently managed to get fedora running on a tablet so you know, first-hand, what it's like, but you're not the first to do this. My girlfriend runs GS on her x230t (and before that, x220t) so I've been able to see how it works with touch. I've posted, in various places, about my experiences, and they were not positive. However, it would require a substantial naivete to think that touch wasn't on their minds when they decided on such huge targets (I'm aware of larger target=easier to hit with mouse, but there is a nice little curve that demonsrates this, that derives from observational data applied to fitts' law, and I don't think they used the correct a and b values, but I've not measured...IOW, stuff too big). Secondly, the idea of monotasking doesn't lend itself well to multi-monitor setups (GS is particularly bad with this area). Before I go any further, I am also aware of mutter's side-tiling ability but that is simply too inflexible. For one thing, I often need to have more than two windows on the screen at a time (for a laptop, this isn't such a big deal, but once you move to larger screens or multi-screens, the GS designs really make less and less sense), and even if I only needed two windows, I don't necessarily need them to be the same size (in fact, I think it is the odd-occasion where I would want them to be the same size). I'm going to stop b/c you may not be interested, and it's all a bit beside the point, but I hope next time you'll look at the substance of an argument rather than filtering it based on where you think it's coming from. Now, none of the preceding would matter if fedora didn't specifically create a prd for the ws that called out "developers" (my term for sysadmins, software engineers, and cs students) as the target. To that end, I know that gnome has some fundamental design issues that upstream simply won't touch (as they say, if it's a problem of design, it's not a problem) so fedora is in a position where it will need to make some decisions. I've spoken about those on the list, and made, what I think, are reasonable suggestions to move forward. The reason why they aren't precise is: 1. I didn't want to bog down that level of discussion with detail, 2. I don't necessarily have the solutions. With regards to the second one, you've got some fedora designers who do have the knowledge/ability to help with this but they aren't working with the gnome team to my knowledge. The gnome team, despite protestations, isn't very welcoming of outsiders who aren't completely on-board with their ideas. I'm not going to link to evidence, but you can find out what I'm talking about if you're interested. So, what would I have liked the responses to looks like? Well, for some reason you asked about in an "ideal case" so to that end, ideally, they would've taken my comments upon high and chartered them into the foundation of the Fedora Project, to be forevermore to be looked upon with awe, and inciting such devotion to making the desktop actually better that it ACTUALLY becomes better... More realistically I was hoping for people to say, "yeah, we plan on doing that", or, "why do you think this is needed?". Lastly, I'm not sure what's wrong with your client but I looked on-line and my responses weren't garbled and included quotes. I'm guessing it might be the html that is a problem for you? If that's the case, I may have to move to a new client.
                          Last edited by liam; 02-22-2014, 06:27 PM. Reason: formatting

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by liam View Post
                            Now, none of the preceding would matter if fedora didn't specifically create a prd for the ws that called out "developers" (my term for sysadmins, software engineers, and cs students) as the target. To that end, I know that gnome has some fundamental design issues that upstream simply won't touch (as they say, if it's a problem of design, it's not a problem) so fedora is in a position where it will need to make some decisions.
                            As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                              As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.
                              Likewise. If you don't like current Gnome, that's fine, but don't project your opinion on everyone else, claiming that it's impossible for developers to use it. That claim is disproven constantly by myself and many of the developers I work with...

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                                As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.
                                As a software engineer, I would second that. It's really absurd to call Gnome Shell not suitable for developers.

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