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  • #76
    Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    Yes, they are holding a gun to the heads of KDE and Gnome developers and forcing them to use systemd. They blackmailed the udev developers into joining the project. Or maybe, just maybe, projects are using systemd and joining systemd because they see technical advantages to doing so.
    No one disagrees with that. But it would have been much better for the whole ecosystem
    if they instead developed standardized interfaces that any program could provide.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Pajn View Post
      No one disagrees with that. But it would have been much better for the whole ecosystem
      if they instead developed standardized interfaces that any program could provide.
      Tons of the functionality in systemd is provided by interfaces that other software could provide. It is even well documented:
      http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Soft...tabilityChart/

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      • #78
        Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
        UNIX's principles remain just a point of view because they depend on what you mean for "do one thing". Does the Linux Kernel does a lot of things or just one: be the layer between you hardware and the rest of the stack?
        So, all depends about what is your project's mission because, to reach your target, you could be forced to do "a lot of things" under the hood.
        this

        besides not being some kind of holy law to be followed blindly, what the "do one thing and do it well" (*) thing was intended for, was userland command line primitives (as in tools implementing a single operation) to be chained together to achieve complex tasks
        what rich gui applications have made obsolete to a certain extent - it's still useful to have them supported, but you cannot really expect users at large to do things only by piping stuff back and forth via shell scripts, nowadays..)

        * and, if you have to quote it, quote it fully, including the part which may imply correctness as well as completeness (so if the "one thing" is "managing services" all aspects of service startup / shutdown /monitoring / configuration /logging / .. are to be implemented)

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        • #79
          Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
          Yes, they are holding a gun to the heads of KDE and Gnome developers and forcing them to use systemd. They blackmailed the udev developers into joining the project. Or maybe, just maybe, projects are using systemd and joining systemd because they see technical advantages to doing so.
          bouth Lennart and Kay are huge proponents and contributors of GnomeOS
          if i were to be cynical id say it was their goal with systemd all along

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          • #80
            Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
            Well, this is not true.
            They (systemd's devs) cannot make systemd a dependecy for everything, because they are not the mainteiners of the other project.
            What they can certainly do is to provide a continuos flow of new, elegant, robust features. When the other projects' mainteiners look to those features can decide to use one or more of them, then, and only then, the systemd starts to be a dependecy for those projects.
            Do you recognize the difference?
            UNIX's principles remain just a point of view because they depend on what you mean for "do one thing". Does the Linux Kernel does a lot of things or just one: be the layer between you hardware and the rest of the stack?
            So, all depends about what is your project's mission because, to reach your target, you could be forced to do "a lot of things" under the hood.
            the Unix kernel also does/did many things
            thing with the linux kernel is that it has very strict standards (ask Kay about that)
            also the way the kernel is designed shows care that things dont have idiotic dependancies
            (you can for example swap the scheduler, a key component, for some other, that you can't do with systemd)

            so if systemd (the kernel in userspace) was designed in the stile of the linux kernel, you could take idk logind and use it without systemd (only thing userspace is really dependant on is the kernel)
            but you can't

            people, wiki for separation of concerns
            its a standard strategy

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
              They (systemd's devs) cannot make systemd a dependecy for everything
              Fortunately, that's true. But what part of "trying to" you don't understand?

              Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
              What they can certainly do is to provide a continuos flow of new, elegant, robust features.
              Wow, just wow. You're from Red Hat PR department, aren't you?

              Originally posted by TAXI View Post
              b) systemd is modular.
              Yeah. A manually-patch-and-recompile-everything-to-make-it-modular kind of modular.

              /facepalm

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by gens View Post
                bouth Lennart and Kay are huge proponents and contributors of GnomeOS
                if i were to be cynical id say it was their goal with systemd all along
                And the KDE community?

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                  But what part of "trying to" you don't understand?
                  The mind-reading, I would think.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by gens View Post
                    so if systemd (the kernel in userspace) was designed in the stile of the linux kernel, you could take idk logind and use it without systemd (only thing userspace is really dependant on is the kernel)
                    but you can't
                    Huh?
                    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTMyMDE
                    https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+archive/logind
                    http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/...-logind.8.html

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                    • #85
                      This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Pajn View Post
                        This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.
                        What do you mean for "unsupported"?
                        Here it's marked as "Completed on 2013-05-29":
                        https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubu...gind-migration

                        And how is it broken? Any specific bug report?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by panda84 View Post
                          What do you mean for "unsupported"?
                          Here it's marked as "Completed on 2013-05-29":
                          https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubu...gind-migration

                          And how is it broken? Any specific bug report?
                          Lennart Poettering made a post on G+ bragging that its broken.
                          https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoet...ts/8RmiAQsW9qf
                          The last time they tried that they took logind out of the systemd tree and ported it to Upstart. logind of course is one of the components of systemd where we explicitly documented that it is not a component you can rip out of systemd. And of course, just a few months after Canonical did this, things are broken again, and this was to be expected: logind now uses the new cgroups userspace APIs (as mentioned above), and hence it will not run without systemd around. So Ubuntu is stuck with an old and unsupported version of logind. If they advocate this as a solution, then they are in ignorance onthat what they have is already out-of-date. (And yeah, this matters, for example all the nifty stuff that allows Wayland to run nicely without privs is implemented in the newer logind versions, and not in Canonical's forked version).

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Pajn View Post
                            Lennart Poettering made a post on G+ bragging that its broken.
                            https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoet...ts/8RmiAQsW9qf
                            Thanks for the pointer. So logind is meant to be part of systemd only.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Pajn View Post
                              This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.
                              You can't expect systemd maintainers to support alternatives to their software.

                              Here is a hint: they work on Systemd because they consider it the superior way. It is the job of those who disagree with that to provide support and maintain the alternative.

                              An alternative even exists: consolekit. But all you see is the nonsystemd crown bitching about systemd instead of maintaining this alternative (let alone adding logind-compatible interfaces)

                              The choices are that either Debian Jessie goes with Systemd or it will have subpar or aging Gnome AND KDE as both will be utilising systemd features.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                                Fortunately, that's true. But what part of "trying to" you don't understand?
                                And what part of "nobody forced other project to use any part of systemd (as per logind)" you don't understand?

                                You are free to use their software as well as they are free to develop it following the direction they have in mind.
                                You don't like the direction? Good, then you can:
                                - fork it
                                - adopt a different project
                                - maintain the old project
                                - start a new one

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