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A Major Music Company Now Backs Systemd In Debian

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Adarion View Post
    Best thing would be choice. Because some people might hesitate to use thing Lennart Poettering touched. Because some of these things are broken or they require a trail of dependencies you don't want. Besides, it leaves BSD (and possibly others) before closed doors which isn't all that nice. I understand the demand for fast booting but there should be ways to do that without all the hassle.
    Choice wouldn't work, that would require a lot of work to create job files for Upstart and SystemD as well as initscripts for other non Linux systems that can't use SystemD.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by oyvind View Post
      Having a free OS on their server farm, but not bothering to *support* a proper client on that same OS. F*** Spotify and their perpetual "preview" client for Linux.
      It's pretty obvious by now that they plan on moving to the webbased player, anyway. The Preview works fine until the webplayer gets feature parity. I however am angry with them for not paying artists more. But that might be the publishers' fault. Publishers are obselete and should go away.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by xeekei View Post
        It's pretty obvious by now that they plan on moving to the webbased player, anyway. The Preview works fine until the webplayer gets feature parity. I however am angry with them for not paying artists more. But that might be the publishers' fault. Publishers are obselete and should go away.
        That is unfortunately the publishers fault. The publishers saw a big investment chance in Spotify and sold their music very
        cheap by instead getting stocks in Spotify.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by xeekei View Post
          I however am angry with them for not paying artists more. But that might be the publishers' fault. Publishers are obselete and should go away.
          Apparently it is a very simple system for handing out royalties. I fail to see how you could make it more fair either. http://www.spotifyartists.com/spotif...lties-overview

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          • #35
            Originally posted by teresaejunior View Post
            Agreed! I simply love sysvinit, because it is very simple and works well, but lately, I'm not too worried for what init system Debian chooses, because I hardly do a fresh boot, I mostly hibernate. The worst problem here is that we are talking about replacing something true and tried with something that just may not work, from the same developers of Pulseaudio, ConsoleKit, PolicyKit..., which are the only things that gives me lots of headache even on Debian Stable.
            ime, i used sysvinit for a decade and was quite confortable/happy with it. (and also used upstart a bit too). When systemd first was coming to Archlinux (as default + switch on update), i was a bit concerned / even a bit intimidated, since i hadn't used systemd at all; and it seemed like a big change. After reading up a bit on it, i upgraded and familiarized myself with systemd. ~ In the end, systemd has really proven itself to me, as a viable replacement to sysvinit, that comes with a lot of advantages/benefits - and i am yet to have experience any drawbacks. While i know, lots of people always cite PA/Lennart as an argument against systemd, which IMO isn't really that great of an argument, and certainly/obviously not a technical argument, at all. i think systemd stands on it's own two feet / own merit.

            Originally posted by teresaejunior View Post
            Also, from many many tests I have done about one year ago, init+readahead-fedora or init+e4rat still boots much faster than systemd with its own readahead, so this one benefit is mostly psychological.
            Well, i am not a different distro (which could easily have an impact) - but previous to upgrading to systemd, i was using sysv+e4rat for a long time - But systemd booted noticeably faster on the very next boot (after upgrading, without analyzing/tuning systemd at all). Obviously, you can use e4rat with systemd, if you like as well... Systemd also provides a way to analyze boot times, right down to individual services starting times (ie: systemd-analyze blame) + you can use bootchart, etc.

            myself, i couldn't imagine migrating back to sysvinit (or at least, i wouldn't want to). I've grown comfortable and happy with systemd. writing service files is simple. Systemd provides lots of information / has a nice set of tools... It's pretty good imo and has yet to cause me any issues - if anything, it's just improved my overall experience (and largely isn't even noticed / just does it's thing, well).

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            • #36
              Originally posted by LinuxAffenMann View Post
              It's probably not a good idea to base technical decisions like that on popularity...

              What's Debian waiting for, though? Pick a default solution and move on - there's no decision that will leave everyone happy anyways.
              But the Spotify post isn't just "we use systemd, so you should default to it". No, it is "we use systemd, because: a) it's more intuitive, b) it scales well, c) it's more powerful". They gave technical arguments, not just popular opinion. Also, the Upstart developers specifically asked people whether the event system is intuitive or not for outsiders, and that's the answer to the question.

              As for what they're waiting for, it's TC members to vote. Two people (or maybe one?) so far are not decided as far as I've heard.

              Originally posted by Adarion View Post
              I am happy that Gentoo leaves me a choice of init systems to use. On my HDD installations I also tend to use e4rat and parallel startup and it boots up fairly fast.
              I'm happy about two things with the init system status on Gentoo: the fact that there is choice, like you said (their reluctance to move away from OpenRC was beneficial in what I'm doing now, that is, a Gentoo chroot on a locked bootloader Android device, whose kernel does not support PID namespaces required for correct functioning of systemd); and the fact that finally the Gentoo developers are treating systemd as an equal to OpenRC (they now added special kernel options that help select things needed for systemd or OpenRC, the installation handbooks were updated to refer to the systemd setup page for those who want to use it, packages now include systemd unit files etc.).
              Last edited by GreatEmerald; 01-19-2014, 04:41 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Adarion View Post
                Best thing would be choice. Because some people might hesitate to use thing Lennart Poettering touched. Because some of these things are broken or they require a trail of dependencies you don't want. Besides, it leaves BSD (and possibly others) before closed doors which isn't all that nice. I understand the demand for fast booting but there should be ways to do that without all the hassle.
                Allowing choice goes without saying on Debian... that's been clear from the start of the discussions, with nobody seriously considering the idea of disallowing alternatively, or killing the non-Linux platforms.. The questions are simply over what should be the default, whether the default should be the same on all platforms, and what do they have to do to make that work?

                E.g if desktops like Gnome and KDE start requiring logind, and logind requires systemd as PID 1, how do people use those desktops if they're running upstart/openrc/sysvinit? Right now, neither desktop has a hard requirement on logind (though some stuff supposedly breaks without it), but that's likely to change... both Gnome and KDE are interested in taking more advantage of such systems, so I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes a hard dependency.

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                • #38
                  Yeah, Gentoo. It's all about choice.
                  My KDE currently is compiled without dependency on systemd but I heard from a pal that he emerged Gnome 3.x and somehow systemd was pulled in and he was even forced to create an initrd (which is in my eyes ridiculous and medieval). I saw some initrd images of compiled distributions and they were so huge (about 100M or something) it was just stunned. My Gentoo kernel fits in 1.7... 3.5 MiB and the modules for rarely used hardware or filesystems in /lib/modules are between 5 and 12 MiB.
                  I just hope KDE will never force systemd upon me.

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                  • #39
                    Why the Spotify hate?

                    I'd love to see Debian used in commercial enterprise data centers more. No matter if they contribute much back or not- it's still good:

                    * They have a bunch of system admins who are or will become competent with Debian. And developers will be familar with developing software that runs on Debian. At some point they'll go work for other companies or will get promoted to senior positions, and they will use Debian there because it has worked before and that's what they are comfortable with.

                    * When things break or there's something to be done in a hurry or when they need some expertise they don't have in house, they'll pay for some support or consultants- some of whom will probably be Debian developers or contributors.

                    * It sets precedent. Spotify is a known company, and them saying "we use Debian on 5000 servers" will make all other companies less afraid to use Debian.

                    * Even if they don't contribute code or money, they have experience of running Debian on 5000 servers, so they will file bug reports or at least comment on what features might be useful, and those features will be useful to other companies that run Debian on 5000 servers. Debian will still benefit from it.

                    * Debian still has customers. Paying or non-paying doesn't matter. Ok, users, customers, call them anything you want. Debian as a project should still strive to make those customers/users happy. Maybe not all of the customers, and technical excellence is still very very important, and the freedom of software, but wishes and opinions of your users should not be discarded outright.

                    Personaly, I don't use Spotify, and I don't know how buggy or good their client is. I'm still glad they use Debian on the servers. And please keep in mind that there are probably at least 2 different teams- one writing the client, another writing the backend, so please don't blame the server/backend guys for whatever failings the client has. Maybe their server team is good and competent, and their opinions should be listened to.

                    Oh, and I don't have much of an opinion myself in systemd vs upstart vs sysvinit vs openrc debate. I didn't have much time to research & play with them, so I cannot judge them on technical merit nor on political underpinnings.

                    --Coder

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by coder111 View Post
                      I'd love to see Debian used in commercial enterprise data centers more. No matter if they contribute much back or not- it's still good:
                      Let's see this point by point. For a starter, it does matter if they contribute back. If you are not a company, free software usually works as a meritocracy. It wouldn't be fair that companies get treated different just because they have more money. You put more effort for the software to thrive, other people in the project are more convinced you want the best for the project and pay more attention to your suggestions. As for the title of your post, I haven't seen hatred, I've seen people telling one should not pay attention just because it's a company. I've seen people complaining of the lack of Linux support while expecting to be heard by the same group of people they are giving the finger to, in terms of support, and I understand such complains if they are true (although I don't use Spotify, so I don't really care about what they support or cease to support).

                      * They have a bunch of system admins who are or will become competent with Debian. And developers will be familar with developing software that runs on Debian. At some point they'll go work for other companies or will get promoted to senior positions, and they will use Debian there because it has worked before and that's what they are comfortable with.
                      AFAIK, it's not the admin the one who decides which system to use, but the boss. The admin only makes sure it keeps working. At least that's how it works in my country, even though I didn't personally worked as IT, several friends had to deal with distributions they hate with their guts, because the job chooses the tool there.

                      * When things break or there's something to be done in a hurry or when they need some expertise they don't have in house, they'll pay for some support or consultants- some of whom will probably be Debian developers or contributors.
                      Can you guarantee that?

                      * It sets precedent. Spotify is a known company, and them saying "we use Debian on 5000 servers" will make all other companies less afraid to use Debian.
                      If the precedent it sets is companies using Debian and not contributing, why should we care? Also, it's not like Debian is a new thing nobody heard about, that they need the free PR.

                      * Even if they don't contribute code or money, they have experience of running Debian on 5000 servers, so they will file bug reports or at least comment on what features might be useful, and those features will be useful to other companies that run Debian on 5000 servers. Debian will still benefit from it.
                      Yes, this is true. Still, doesn't lead to "then, we should pay special attention to their suggestions". I report bugs too (although I report on Xubuntu or directly upstream). Most users report bugs when they find them. Does that mean every user should get their opinion specially considered? Because that pretty much drains time in pointless discussions and voids the meaning of "special". Again, nobody is saying "don't listen to Spotify at all", but study the arguments and ignore where they come from, and that's what generally basic logic dictates. On the contrary, some people wants to discard it because it's Spotify while some other people (your post makes me think you are one, but maybe I'm wrong) seems to think "Spotify is a big name, therefore they must be right, ignore the reasons as they are too mighty for us to understand".

                      * Debian still has customers. Paying or non-paying doesn't matter. Ok, users, customers, call them anything you want. Debian as a project should still strive to make those customers/users happy. Maybe not all of the customers, and technical excellence is still very very important, and the freedom of software, but wishes and opinions of your users should not be discarded outright.
                      Nope. A customer is someone who gives something back for the service, period. If you make charity, the people you help are not customers. Paying or not paying is what makes the difference between being a customer or not. Firstly, because you will usually try to conform a customer better, because what you get is not gratification only for what you did, but a pay. If you do it just for the gratification, you can quit doing it when it stops being rewarding, and you don't need to listen anyone else. And again, nobody says opinions should be discarded outright.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                        Nope. A customer is someone who gives something back for the service, period. If you make charity, the people you help are not customers. Paying or not paying is what makes the difference between being a customer or not. Firstly, because you will usually try to conform a customer better, because what you get is not gratification only for what you did, but a pay. If you do it just for the gratification, you can quit doing it when it stops being rewarding, and you don't need to listen anyone else. And again, nobody says opinions should be discarded outright.
                        If you're working as a volunteer programmer, you're customers are the people using your software. Deal with it.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                          If you're working as a volunteer programmer, you're customers are the people using your software. Deal with it.
                          Taking part in an open source software project as a hobby has nothing to do with work. There's no customer relationship, nor do users receive any rights outside of those described in the license. Deal with it.


                          PS: "Deal with it" does not lend any weight to whatever precedes it. The phrase is completely useless in a serious discussion or debate. Deal with it.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                            If you're working as a volunteer programmer, you're customers are the people using your software. Deal with it.
                            If I'm working as a volunteer programmer, I have no responsibility towards you. When you understand this, you'll come to the conclusion you are not my customer, and expecting to be treated like one is but some cocky self-entitlement. Being a volunteer means your will to work on it is your only motivation. What pressure would you put on the "service provider" to be heard? A real customer can take his money away, and that's how he's listened by the service provider. Like it or not, if a volunteer tells you "I will not fix this bug because I don't like working on this", you'll have to live with that. The programmer can quit and the only thing he loses is a hobby, and he might look for another project to fulfill that. You can stop using his software. And you know how will it affect the programmer? He will stop getting updates on the bug he doesn't intend to fix: profit.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tuubi View Post
                              PS: "Deal with it" does not lend any weight to whatever precedes it. The phrase is completely useless in a serious discussion or debate. Deal with it.
                              You're on phoronix, a forum filled with batshit crazy morons with wild speculation about software and you are complaining that one person isn't taking your opinion seriously?

                              Perspective, get some.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                                If I'm working as a volunteer programmer, I have no responsibility towards you. When you understand this, you'll come to the conclusion you are not my customer, and expecting to be treated like one is but some cocky self-entitlement. Being a volunteer means your will to work on it is your only motivation. What pressure would you put on the "service provider" to be heard? A real customer can take his money away, and that's how he's listened by the service provider. Like it or not, if a volunteer tells you "I will not fix this bug because I don't like working on this", you'll have to live with that. The programmer can quit and the only thing he loses is a hobby, and he might look for another project to fulfill that. You can stop using his software. And you know how will it affect the programmer? He will stop getting updates on the bug he doesn't intend to fix: profit.
                                If you're writing code that you expect people to use, you have a responsibility to fix it. If you don't want that responsibility but still want to subject the world to your broken code than you are just a worthless shitheal that can fuck right the hell off.

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