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Debian Still Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

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  • Debian Still Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

    Phoronix: Debian Stil Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

    The Debian technical committee hasn't yet decided what will be the default init system for the 8.0 "Jessie" release, but it still is a heated debate as some of the committee members are starting to publicly cast their views...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTU1NjA

  • #2
    Popcorn's available in the lobby, folks!

    *munch munch*

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    • #3
      The best idea for debian would be OpenRC or Upstart for portablilty reasons. I would be fine with both, just no systemd please

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      • #4
        I wouldn't touch Debian or its derivatives, so this doesn't affect me, but i think Debian should pick any non-Systemd. I am a systemd user myself, but Debian needs the portability, so systemd is not an attractive option.

        I would also like other systems receive attention, because i like having alternatives available...

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        • #5
          I think compatibility to non-linux kernels is a non-issue. I appreciate the desire for portability, but they threw a big chunk of that out the window when they started supporting the BSD kernel. I'm not sure if this is true for debian, but for Arch linux vs Arch BSD, there are a lot of significant differences. To list a few:
          * They have a different set of documentation (debian seems to share a lot, but not all of their linux and BSD documentation is shared)
          * They don't share all of the same drivers.
          * They don't offer all of the same packages.
          * They're not binary compatible.
          * For software that does work on both, I highly doubt all of them are the same version.
          So, if so many fundamental features/traits are so different between the two, why does it matter what the init system is? In the end, all debian should be doing is striving for the 3 things they are known for - the apt package management system, supporting a wide range of CPU platforms, and stability. This debate is fruitless and counterproductive, so just pick one, deal with the opposing side's bitching for a few months, and move on.
          Last edited by schmidtbag; 12-30-2013, 02:47 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Annabel View Post
            The best idea for debian would be OpenRC or Upstart for portablilty reasons. I would be fine with both, just no systemd please
            You must not be have read the discussions at all then. Both Upstart and systemd use Linux specific API's extensively and neither can run on anything other than Linux at the moment. Moreoever Debian is going to adopt systemd components like logind regardless of whether they use systemd as a init system. So they do have to figure out what porters can do about it but considering the very dismal use of non Linux kernels in Debian, it might not be a real issue. Other init systems are not serious contenders because of poor feature set, lack of adoption, lack of comprehensive documentation etc.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
              In the end, all debian should be doing is striving for the 3 things they are known for - the apt package management system, supporting a wide range of CPU platforms, and stability. This debate is fruitless and counterproductive, so just pick one, deal with the opposing side's bitching for a few months, and move on.
              I am glad that this is not how Debian works, which is pointed out also in one of the follow ups in that thread.
              I hope that they go for Upstart, so that there is a strong counterpart (Debian+Ubuntu, the most used distros) to systemd. While diversity is not in all cases good I believe that this one is a case were it actually is.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                You must not be have read the discussions at all then.

                [snip]

                So they do have to figure out what porters can do about it but considering the very dismal use of non Linux kernels in Debian, it might not be a real issue. Other init systems are not serious contenders because of poor feature set, lack of adoption, lack of comprehensive documentation etc.
                Talking about who has not read the discussions:
                Unless you are proposing to make systemd mandatory for all Debian
                installations, this is work that needs to be done anyway.
                Under those kind of circumstances I am willing for the Debian project
                as a whole to go to quite some effort (and, indeed, impose some effort
                even on the maintainers of systemd in Debian) to retain the
                flexibility that I think is important.
                We have
                historically been entirely unafraid to do our own better things, even
                if it is more work and takes us longer.
                We have got where we are by doing things the way we think is best, not
                by simply following the herd.
                http://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/.../msg00259.html

                All of those points where not opposed by anyone in the discussion, so one can assume that they are valid.

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                • #9
                  Part of me wonders how this is even a discussion.

                  One technology at play is compatible with the Debian Free Software Guidelines: http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

                  The other does not: http://www.canonical.com/contributors

                  That's the end of the discussion. Period. Upstart isn't even an option for Debian to consider on any level.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                    Talking about who has not read the discussions:http://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/.../msg00259.html

                    All of those points where not opposed by anyone in the discussion, so one can assume that they are valid.
                    Russ's reply addressed them just fine. I don't need to repeat them here.

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