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  • Debian To Switch To Systemd Or Upstart

    Phoronix: Debian To Switch To Systemd Or Upstart

    Debian developers have been in a very polarized discussion recently about replacing their default SysVinit system with a more modern init system; namely, Debian developers are evaluating whether to use systemd or Upstart...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTQ5NzQ

  • #2
    I will remove Debian from my disk (after 10 years) if they will switch to upstart. Fact that some Canonical employees are moving Debian into Ubuntu way, because of some political reasons is making me sick of them.

    Comment


    • #3
      openrc?

      Gentoo's openrc works on both Linux and FreeBSD (also ArchBSD uses it). Considering the similar aims of Debian and Gentoo when it comes to portability and being more of a "framework" not only for Linux, it might be an interesting alternative.

      For features/performance I have no idea how Openrc compares to systemd and upstart.

      EDIT:
      a potentially biased comparison matrix

      http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Com...f_init_systems

      Comment


      • #4
        Canonical Tea Party? Please not! Debian mays tart to become tainted by Ubuntuisms...

        Mark Shuttleworth words were quite funny to me, because Canonical employees and rogue collaborators are the ones that try to influence a non-profit meritocratic organization like Debian to adopt their cathedral-like software. We have more than enough with stuff like CUPS, please avoid this shit.

        I use Debian on some of my systems, but I would remove it as soon as Upstart appears. It's a POS and I'm against Canonical politics, that are destructive to the free software community ways.

        They should ONLY choose a new init system based on objective technical merits, not because some corporate employees are in the governing board of the Debian project.

        OpenRC is a better candidate than Upstart, it's available on both Linux and BSD. But in my opinion, is quite outdated compared to Systemd and other commercial UNIXes.

        Despite the critics towards Systemd, it managed to do things a lot better than others and is progressing in a very fast way (it needs to improve in some important areas, that's true). Maybe Systemd can be improved to support non-linux kernels like FreeBSD or other UNIX-like ones like illumos, if there are enough developers and a good organized plan.

        Systemd is heavily inspired on Solaris SMF, maybe it could be interesting to see it on something like Dyson (a Debian/illumos distro). And then users/developers of the OpenSolaris forks would improve it too, based on their experience on their spiritual predecessor.
        Last edited by timofonic; 10-28-2013, 07:52 AM.

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        • #5
          I can't understand what is this BSD trend!? Will somebody explain to me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Wow, they've ruined Ubuntu, now they're going after Debian. It's like a cancer which is spreading.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Drago View Post
              I can't understand what is this BSD trend!? Will somebody explain to me.
              There is no BSD trend. There are ~10 Debian/kFreeBSD users dragging us millions of Debian/GNU Linux users technologically down.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Drago View Post
                I can't understand what is this BSD trend!? Will somebody explain to me.
                What do you mean? There's no trend, just the usual news about BSD stuff. BSD usually grows by forking, just like starfishes

                Using different kernels with Linux-like userlands are an interesting experiment in my opinion, just to do performance comparisons and make the code more compatible. When you test you code on different environments and fix it to make it work, the code gets less hacky and more robust!

                I would appreciate a lot if Systemd stops being Linux specific and gets ported to other non-Linux systems, it could be positive for everyone. It would be more tested and more software would support it.
                Last edited by timofonic; 10-28-2013, 07:59 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                  Using different kernels with Linux-like userlands are an interesting experiment in my opinion, just to do performance comparisons and make the code more compatible. When you test you code on different environments and fix it to make it work, the code gets less hacky and more robust!
                  Actually, it get's more hacky and less robust. More code paths, more #ifdef's, more abstraction layers, exploding test matrix.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This was big news. Plenty of attention should be put on the voting process. In my opinion this issue should be put under Standard Resolution Procedure and not for the technical committee to chose.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MatthewPL View Post
                      I will remove Debian from my disk (after 10 years) if they will switch to upstart. Fact that some Canonical employees are moving Debian into Ubuntu way, because of some political reasons is making me sick of them.
                      A) They were voted into those positions. Blame democracy. What, you hate democracy?

                      B) Upstart is used by Red Hat, which is a pretty big deal.

                      C) Upstart is More MATURE than SystemD (I don't care what I capitalize, lolz, I hope you OCD hurts), especially due to Red Hat assistance in its stabilization.

                      D) SystemD was thought of, coded, and made essentially linux only, while Upstart can be used on more platforms. Debian has a freebsd kernel too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dh04000 View Post
                        while Upstart can be used on more platforms
                        No, it can't. Upstart is Linux only.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i'm sorry bsd guys

                          Originally posted by Drago View Post
                          I can't understand what is this BSD trend!? Will somebody explain to me.
                          theres something like 10 BSD users out there that are upset that systemd is Linux only and that systemd will only work Linux kernel variant of Debian

                          Systemd is the most universal init system for Linux, it's not perfect but it seems to work realy well for most of the things and do more than other init systems are doing currently

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                            Mark Shuttleworth words were quite funny to me, because Canonical employees and rogue collaborators are the ones that try to influence a non-profit meritocratic organization like Debian to adopt their cathedral-like software. We have more than enough with stuff like CUPS, please avoid this shit.

                            I use Debian on some of my systems, but I would remove it as soon as Upstart appears. It's a POS and I'm against Canonical politics, that are destructive to the free software community ways.

                            They should ONLY choose a new init system based on objective technical merits, not because some corporate employees are in the governing board of the Debian project.

                            OpenRC is a better candidate than Upstart, it's available on both Linux and BSD. But in my opinion, is quite outdated compared to Systemd and other commercial UNIXes.

                            Despite the critics towards Systemd, it managed to do things a lot better than others and is progressing in a very fast way (it needs to improve in some important areas, that's true). Maybe Systemd can be improved to support non-linux kernels like FreeBSD or other UNIX-like ones like illumos, if there are enough developers and a good organized plan.

                            Systemd is heavily inspired on Solaris SMF, maybe it could be interesting to see it on something like Dyson (a Debian/illumos distro). And then users/developers of the OpenSolaris forks would improve it too, based on their experience on their spiritual predecessor.
                            Could you give some information about what is bad about upstart and what is good about systemd? I know it is really bad that only Ubuntu uses upstart and that everybody else uses systemd but what else?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dh04000 View Post
                              A) They were voted into those positions. Blame democracy. What, you hate democracy?

                              B) Upstart is used by Red Hat, which is a pretty big deal.

                              C) Upstart is More MATURE than SystemD (I don't care what I capitalize, lolz, I hope you OCD hurts), especially due to Red Hat assistance in its stabilization.

                              D) SystemD was thought of, coded, and made essentially linux only, while Upstart can be used on more platforms. Debian has a freebsd kernel too.
                              As far as I know Red Hat uses systemd and the main developer works for Red Hat? What does more mature mean in this context? Which distributions use upstart?

                              Comment

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