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Fedora 20 Goes For No Default Sendmail, Syslog

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  • Fedora 20 Goes For No Default Sendmail, Syslog

    Phoronix: Fedora 20 Goes For No Default Sendmail, Syslog

    There was a Fedora Engineering and Steering Committee meeting yesterday where more features of Fedora 20 were approved...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTQzNzQ

  • #2
    This will also make it a Little faster will it not?

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    • #3
      Systemd journal is crap. Storing logs in binary format means breaking UNIX principles and making sysadmin's job harder. RedHat used to have a clue but it seems they've completely lost touch with reality by now. Much like Canonical.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
        Systemd journal is crap. Storing logs in binary format means breaking UNIX principles and making sysadmin's job harder. RedHat used to have a clue but it seems they've completely lost touch with reality by now. Much like Canonical.
        "Breaking unix principles" Sorry but...not really. Also if you hate the systemd journal so much there is literally nothing stopping you from installing syslog and having journald forward messages to syslog. You actually come out BETTER because the Journal takes more detailed logs and syslog will GET those more detailed logs, therefore increasing the effectiveness OF the syslog logs.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Honton View Post
          Besides doing init The Right Way(TM), Systemd exposes all the cool feature added to Linux over last couple years. Systemd might very well be the single most value-adding package dropped into RHEL7.

          Oh and do you know why machine code and file system layouts are not human readable? Because it is unsafe, hard to sort, hard to compress, and inefficient. Just like other things that need to be safe, sortable, compressable, and efficient you need to go binary.
          jounalctl will still dump data to text stream when you invoke it, and it brings guarantees that a traditional init and logger just can't bring, like early boot logging. following child process even after double forking, and making it easy to dump the messages of the entire cgroup should something go wrong.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by tron_ston
            The Unix way is obsolete
            How exacly are any of the following guiding rules of unix obsolete?

            Rule of Modularity: Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces.

            Rule of Clarity: Clarity is better than cleverness.

            Rule of Composition: Design programs to be connected to other programs.

            Rule of Separation: Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines.

            Rule of Simplicity: Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must.

            Rule of Parsimony: Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else will do.

            Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and debugging easier.

            Rule of Robustness: Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity.

            Rule of Representation: Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust.

            Rule of Least Surprise: In interface design, always do the least surprising thing.

            Rule of Silence: When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing.

            Rule of Repair: When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible.

            Rule of Economy: Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time.

            Rule of Generation: Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can.

            Rule of Optimization: Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it.

            Rule of Diversity: Distrust all claims for “one true way”.

            Rule of Extensibility: Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think.


            Some of the way Unix tried to implement these are obsolete, but it seems as sensible as ever to stick to them.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Honton View Post
              Faster boot.
              Not really, syslog doesn't really take any time to boot. Systemd vs. system V init is much faster but you aren't going to notice a single extra log deamon being started.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                Systemd journal is crap. Storing logs in binary format means breaking UNIX principles and making sysadmin's job harder. RedHat used to have a clue but it seems they've completely lost touch with reality by now. Much like Canonical.
                how dare they break unix principals, I say we should all go back to having to manually communicate with the CPU by switches on the computer and programming in FORTRAN because we're just ruining years of computer tradition!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tron_ston
                  The Unix way is obsolete. It's what holds Linux back and it's the reason why UNIX and BSD are dying. To continue to succeed in the future, Linux must get rid of the vestiges of UNIX.

                  Following the UNIX principle made the early development of Linux manageable with such a small number of developers. But now there are many developers and Linux is being used seriously.
                  This has got to be one of the most retarded things I've ever heard anyone say.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by peppercats View Post
                    how dare they break unix principals, I say we should all go back to having to manually communicate with the CPU by switches on the computer and programming in FORTRAN because we're just ruining years of computer tradition!
                    If the only thing you have is sarcasm instead of facts, then go home.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tron_ston
                      The Unix way is obsolete. It's what holds Linux back and it's the reason why UNIX and BSD are dying. To continue to succeed in the future, Linux must get rid of the vestiges of UNIX.

                      Following the UNIX principle made the early development of Linux manageable with such a small number of developers. But now there are many developers and Linux is being used seriously.
                      I always laugh when I read stuff like this.

                      On the one hand we hear endlessly about how Linux has conquered the entire universe and is in everything from supercomputers to toasters. Then on the other hand we hear that Linux will go nowhere unless it's as moronic as Windows 95 (and I see there is a lot of push lately to make Linux as idiotic as possible, whether it's from RH or Canonical).

                      I'll just put it out there: if you're going for desktop share, then, no -- none of all these new fad projects are going to make Linux any more profitable on the desktop.


                      edit: and lol @ Fedora as anything other than a testbed for RHEL.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by johnc View Post
                        I'll just put it out there: if you're going for desktop share, then, no -- none of all these new fad projects are going to make Linux any more profitable on the desktop. edit: and lol @ Fedora as anything other than a testbed for RHEL.
                        If you notice, who is funding these projects, you would note that it has not much to do with the desktop. systemd is far more widely deployed on embedded systems than for desktop as an example. Also Fedora is used as more than a testbed in a wide variety of places. I just attended flock - fedora conference where there were atleast three different major organizations including Yahoo! deploying Fedora in developer workstations in several thousands of systems in part to get them ahead of the curve and be able to participate early on where enterprise linux is heading towards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQzm1qoc2XA

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                          I just attended flock - fedora conference where there were atleast three different major organizations including Yahoo! deploying Fedora in developer workstations in several thousands of systems in part to get them ahead of the curve and be able to participate early on where enterprise linux is heading towards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQzm1qoc2XA
                          Maybe I am missing something here, but doesn't that mean that Yahoo uses Fedora because it is the testbed for the largest enterprise distro? How should they get ahead of the curve and participate early on where enterprise Linux is heading towards if this would not be the case?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                            Maybe I am missing something here, but doesn't that mean that Yahoo uses Fedora because it is the testbed for the largest enterprise distro? How should they get ahead of the curve and participate early on where enterprise Linux is heading towards if this would not be the case?
                            RHEL 7 will be based on Fedora 19 Connect the dots people

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                              Maybe I am missing something here, but doesn't that mean that Yahoo uses Fedora because it is the testbed for the largest enterprise distro? How should they get ahead of the curve and participate early on where enterprise Linux is heading towards if this would not be the case?
                              Let me expand on it a bit more then. They use Fedora in part because it is upstream for Red Hat Enterprise Linux but also because it has a faster lifecycle and is usable as a workstation or in the cloud (while allowing them to share the typical RPM based infrastructure including kickstart etc) where the slower lifecycle of EL isn't necessarily a good fit. This is why calling it *just* a test bed is misleading because Fedora serves a wide variety of users and includes a enormous number of packages (roughly 3k in EL vs over 14k in Fedora) maintained in a large part by hundreds of volunteers. I know contributors whose only interest in Fedora is *gaming* for instance. They could care less about enterprise linux.

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