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Sabayon 13.08 Brings Systemd By Default, UEFI Fixes

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stqn View Post
    systemd does not deserve any respectÖ Itís very complex (supposedly to make things work automagically, but guess whatÖ it does _not_ work automagically), complicated to use (writing unit files for everything is not my idea of fun), and broken (restart crashing daemons every second? check! Stall startup or shutdown indefinitely? check! Make it impossible for end-users to access their core dumps? check!); it does not solve any problem (as far as end-users are concerned at least), and it changes behaviour at each release, and changes system settings that it shouldnít.
    Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). The single reason why I like systemd is because it's very easy and convenient to use. A lot of things do work automagically, things that don't do that in OpenRC (there are I believe two pages of the Gentoo installation manual that can be skipped if you use systemd). Writing unit files is much simpler and easier than writing shell scripts. Systemd does what you ask of it, so if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. It's also quite possible to access logs for users, it just needs a toll that runs journalctl to read the journal on disk, as far as I know. If it changes behaviour, you get notified of it in systemd release notes and in the Gentoo message system. And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.

    Posts like that is probably one of the things that fuel the whole NIH viewpoint, too...

    Overall in binary distributions, it doesn't matter much what init system you use. I rarely have to do anything with systemd in openSUSE, for instance, because all the packages automatically do that for me, and the whole initial configuration was done by the people who made the install disc. But in distributions like Gentoo, where you start nearly from scratch, it makes a lot of difference. I need to talk to systemd very often during setup, or when troubleshooting something on Gentoo, and it's always pleasant. A central place from which you can reboot, suspend, hibernate, see the status and some information about a service at a glance, manage the service state, adjust and synchronise the date and time, set locales, view all the logs at once (or ordered), create and combine timed tasks, etc. And the documentation for all this is excellent. And that's just part of what I personally often get to use, systemd offers even more capabilities than that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by duby229 View Post
      I have fundamental disagreements with that guy.... grrr!

      EDIT: He starts his speech off talking about cooperating with everybody else, but it damn sure looks like forcing his shit on everybody else.
      Yes... "forcing" because the udev maintainer thought merging with systemd was a good idea. If you want to hate anyone for "forcing" systemd on anyone, blame the udev maintainer, not Lennart.

      systemd is good for consolidation of distros, there's no reason for all the differentations that we've seen over the years.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
        Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). The single reason why I like systemd is because it's very easy and convenient to use. A lot of things do work automagically, things that don't do that in OpenRC (there are I believe two pages of the Gentoo installation manual that can be skipped if you use systemd). Writing unit files is much simpler and easier than writing shell scripts. Systemd does what you ask of it, so if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. It's also quite possible to access logs for users, it just needs a toll that runs journalctl to read the journal on disk, as far as I know. If it changes behaviour, you get notified of it in systemd release notes and in the Gentoo message system. And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.

        Posts like that is probably one of the things that fuel the whole NIH viewpoint, too...

        Overall in binary distributions, it doesn't matter much what init system you use. I rarely have to do anything with systemd in openSUSE, for instance, because all the packages automatically do that for me, and the whole initial configuration was done by the people who made the install disc. But in distributions like Gentoo, where you start nearly from scratch, it makes a lot of difference. I need to talk to systemd very often during setup, or when troubleshooting something on Gentoo, and it's always pleasant. A central place from which you can reboot, suspend, hibernate, see the status and some information about a service at a glance, manage the service state, adjust and synchronise the date and time, set locales, view all the logs at once (or ordered), create and combine timed tasks, etc. And the documentation for all this is excellent. And that's just part of what I personally often get to use, systemd offers even more capabilities than that.
        I was about to rip into him...and Emerald beat me to it. So thank you for saving me the trouble haha

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Honton View Post
          Sabayon done, Debian next.
          http://meetings-archive.debian.net/p...he_default.ogv

          Go free software, fight software handicapped by contributor agreements.
          So funkStar, please tell us why discussing a switch for Debian to from SystemV to systemd is fighting contributor agreements?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
            Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). [Ö] if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. [Ö] And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.
            This reply shows that _you_ are misinformed.

            Iíll admit that I havenít had the reload-every-second problem but Iíve heard about it. The rest Iíve experienced first hand.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by stqn View Post
              This reply shows that _you_ are misinformed.

              Iíll admit that I havenít had the reload-every-second problem but Iíve heard about it. The rest Iíve experienced first hand.
              When? When systemd was first put into Fedora 17? Put Fedora 19 on a computer, install all the updates, and use it as your main computer doing everything you normally do and see if you still have problems. Bugs get fixed. And frankly I've had NONE of the problems you've mentioned so something was very wrong with your install when you tried it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by stqn View Post
                systemd does not deserve any respect… It’s very complex (supposedly to make things work automagically, but guess what… it does _not_ work automagically), complicated to use (writing unit files for everything is not my idea of fun), and broken (restart crashing daemons every second? check! Stall startup or shutdown indefinitely? check! Make it impossible for end-users to access their core dumps? check!); it does not solve any problem (as far as end-users are concerned at least), and it changes behaviour at each release, and changes system settings that it shouldn’t.
                Unit files are a lot easier and cleaner than the horrific mess of bash scripts we had before. When I was an early adopter of systemd in arch I was able to easily write a few of them, and I was a total systemd noob

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