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DNF Still Advancing As Experimental Yum For Fedora

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  • DNF Still Advancing As Experimental Yum For Fedora

    Phoronix: DNF Still Advancing As Experimental Yum For Fedora

    DNF is the experimental fork of the Yum package manager that premiered in Fedora 18. While much hasn't been heard of this experimental Yum replacement since its debut, work on it has still been progressing and is turning out to be in great shape, is slowly approaching feature-parity with Yum, and is faster...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTM3NTA

  • #2
    Not really sure if Yum needs a replacement as much as configured differently upon default installation.
    The slowest part is that it doesn't use a cache like apt by default, using -C makes it just as fast as apt.

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    • #3
      Bash completion should take minutes to fix if it's CLI compatible with yum. Copy the completion script and s/yum/dnf/g.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by peppercats View Post
        Not really sure if Yum needs a replacement as much as configured differently upon default installation.
        The slowest part is that it doesn't use a cache like apt by default, using -C makes it just as fast as apt.
        dnf is just a prototype and the plan is for this to literally become the new yum so you wouldn't really notice that it has been replaced. dnf syncs the metadata using a systemd timer by default so wouldn't have to wait for it to be updated first typically. Fedora drops older packages beyond two versions from the master server to keep mirrors happy (its still retained in the build system so you can get it if you really want to) so if metadata isnt updated first, you might run into issues.

        @elanthis More or less, yeah. Copying and tweaking for slight differences. It is a easy fix.

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        • #5
          How to get a next generation YUM in minutes:
          1.) Fork zypper (front-end only, not libzypp)
          2.) Change the zypper commands to match YUM
          3.) Change the name of the zypper fork to YUM.
          Done.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
            How to get a next generation YUM in minutes:
            1.) Fork zypper (front-end only, not libzypp)
            2.) Change the zypper commands to match YUM
            3.) Change the name of the zypper fork to YUM.
            Done.
            They would be better off just dropping yum and adopting zypper and libzypp.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
              How to get a next generation YUM in minutes:
              1.) Fork zypper (front-end only, not libzypp)
              2.) Change the zypper commands to match YUM
              3.) Change the name of the zypper fork to YUM.
              Done.
              A dependency resolver is very much a core component and you can't just swap one with another and really expect it to work and that is why a transition to libsolv needs a lot of testing and time to mature.

              yum's dependency resolving logic is different. SUSE has a number of distribution specific tweaks to RPM which aren't used outside the distribution but used by zypper and won't work in Fedora at all. Also yum has a number of commands including history etc which have no equivalent in zypper. In addition to that, yum is not just a end user tool but also provides the API that is used by all the different yum plugins, the build tools like mock and koji, qa tools and Anaconda, the installer itself.

              The good news is that when dnf becomes mature, libsolv as the key library will be shared by both Fedora and openSUSE and RPM developers have some potential plans merge it upstream as well.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by peppercats View Post
                The slowest part is that it doesn't use a cache like apt by default, using -C makes it just as fast as apt.
                Ah yes the wacko idea to update each time from the net that trickled down without notice upon desktop users from the server-side.

                I sometimes ask myself - how come crappy decisions like this happen, then I remember how nautilus by default (until like 2011) opened each dir in a new window on double click (thanks to Canonical for overriding this idiocy in Ubuntu by default), or how gedit by default shits out a hidden backup copy for every edited file ever littering your desktop computer with random garbage - and I give up.

                To companies: don't allow server side mentality/bigotry/paranoia to automatically trickle down onto the desktop, put a common sense filter in between.
                Last edited by mark45; 05-19-2013, 05:35 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                  SUSE has a number of distribution specific tweaks to RPM which aren't used outside the distribution but used by zypper and won't work in Fedora at all.
                  That's quite a strange statement considering that a few non-SUSE distributions already switched to zypper years ago, including the Fedora-derived Ark Linux distribution. I don't have a Fedora installation at hand right now but I'm sure you do. So why don't you add the upstream Fedora repo, install zypper, and tell us what exactly doesn't work.
                  http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...ead/Fedora_17/

                  Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                  Also yum has a number of commands including history etc which have no equivalent in zypper.
                  Then add them to zypper. Red Hat has a great reputation for working upstream. Strange to see Canonical mentality creep into RH. “Upstream doesn't provide every last bit we want? Roll out our own solution instead.”

                  Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                  In addition to that, yum is not just a end user tool but also provides the API that is used by all the different yum plugins, the build tools like mock and koji, qa tools and Anaconda, the installer itself.
                  Deprecate the yum API and rather use the resources to port the other stuff to libzypp.

                  Before DNF development started zypp was the only LSB-compatible package manager to be actively developed among all mainstream distributions.
                  If the roles were reversed, I'd tell a SUSE engineer exactly the same thing: Drop your home-grown solution is favor of of the superior one by a 3rd party.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                    Red Hat has a great reputation for working upstream. Strange to see Canonical mentality creep into RH. “Upstream doesn't provide every last bit we want? Roll out our own solution instead.”
                    Interesting that there are more distributions using zypper. But what does Red Hat have to do with all that to begin with?

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                    • #11
                      Debian

                      Port DNF to Debian and put it in the Debian repository?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                        Interesting that there are more distributions using zypper. But what does Red Hat have to do with all that to begin with?
                        If you don't know what Red Hat has to do with Fedora, try to get internet in your cave and look it up.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          If you don't know what Red Hat has to do with Fedora, try to get internet in your cave and look it up.
                          Red Hat uses Fedora as a base for RHEL. They also provide hosting for Fedora. They also hire people to work on software. But what package management tools to use in Fedora is the decision of Fedora, not Red Hat.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            That's quite a strange statement considering that a few non-SUSE distributions already switched to zypper years ago, including the Fedora-derived Ark Linux distribution. I don't have a Fedora installation at hand right now but I'm sure you do. So why don't you add the upstream Fedora repo, install zypper, and tell us what exactly doesn't work.
                            http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...ead/Fedora_17/
                            There were several attempts in the past, see
                            https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=447740
                            https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=729200
                            https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=729201


                            DNF was made during Fedora 16 timeframe.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                              That's quite a strange statement considering that a few non-SUSE distributions already switched to zypper years ago, including the Fedora-derived Ark Linux distribution. I don't have a Fedora installation at hand right now but I'm sure you do. So why don't you add the upstream Fedora repo, install zypper, and tell us what exactly doesn't work.
                              http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...ead/Fedora_17/


                              Then add them to zypper. Red Hat has a great reputation for working upstream. Strange to see Canonical mentality creep into RH. “Upstream doesn't provide every last bit we want? Roll out our own solution instead.”


                              Deprecate the yum API and rather use the resources to port the other stuff to libzypp.

                              Before DNF development started zypp was the only LSB-compatible package manager to be actively developed among all mainstream distributions.
                              If the roles were reversed, I'd tell a SUSE engineer exactly the same thing: Drop your home-grown solution is favor of of the superior one by a 3rd party.
                              I have used a zypper build for Fedora and have ran into many many issues and even reported a few. There has been several attempts to bring zypper into Fedora and none of them panned out for various reasons. Either zypper has improved drastically meanwhile or other distributions are patching it.

                              zypper is nowhere close to being used or developed by all mainstream RPM using distribution. Fedora or RHEL or Mandriva or Mageia isn't using it and SUSE does most, if not all of the development in zypper.

                              Also, dnf isn't rolling out isn't own solution. its a prototype that uses same library as zypper (libsolv) and will become the new yum eventually and Fedora developers are coordinating with the libsolv developers in SUSE and the primary developer was even in the last Fedora conference and presented on the SUSE tools. Cleaning up the yum API as necessary and doing a slow transition while retaining command line and configuration compatibility with yum makes it easier for users to adopt. You seem to be underestimating the work involved considering the number of tools within Fedora that use the yum API. A wholesale switchover just isn't feasible for Fedora and you shouldn't really expect that to happen.
                              Last edited by RahulSundaram; 05-19-2013, 12:59 PM.

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