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Fedora 18 "Spherical Cow" Beta Finally Released

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  • Fedora 18 "Spherical Cow" Beta Finally Released

    Phoronix: Fedora 18 "Spherical Cow" Beta Finally Released

    After an embarrassing number of delays that put the entire release in question, the Fedora 18 Beta of the "Spherical Cow" was finally released today...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTIzNzM

  • #2
    So this release finally ships with GRUB2 by default, right?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mark45 View Post
      So this release finally ships with GRUB2 by default, right?
      It's default since at least F16...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by r1348 View Post
        It's default since at least F16...
        You're wrong. Anyone with real knowledge?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mark45 View Post
          You're wrong. Anyone with real knowledge?
          lol

          Some glitches here and there, main problem is still with the installer (which supports btrfs layouts, kind of at the moment). You have to use the installer as if you never installed Linux or partitioned a drive using GPT,DOS,LVM or BTRFS.

          Once installed it works fine, a distribution to install the forget about with smooth Gnome3

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mark45 View Post
            You're wrong. Anyone with real knowledge?
            Code:
            [dario@dario-laptop ~]$ uname -a
            Linux dario-laptop 3.6.8-1.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Nov 26 22:11:44 UTC 2012 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
            [dario@dario-laptop ~]$ rpm -qa | grep grub2
            grub2-tools-2.0-0.38.beta6.fc17.x86_64
            grub2-2.0-0.38.beta6.fc17.x86_64
            Straight from the laptop I'm writing from.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by r1348 View Post
              Code:
              [dario@dario-laptop ~]$ uname -a
              Linux dario-laptop 3.6.8-1.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Nov 26 22:11:44 UTC 2012 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
              [dario@dario-laptop ~]$ rpm -qa | grep grub2
              grub2-tools-2.0-0.38.beta6.fc17.x86_64
              grub2-2.0-0.38.beta6.fc17.x86_64
              Straight from the laptop I'm writing from.
              Having grub2 packaged in repos and having it installed by default are different things. Also, your Fedora 17 != F16.

              As the history goes they targeted F16 for Grub2 by default and failed - you probably googled, found their F16 release plans mentioning grub2 and hurried telling me it was by default since F16 - bullshit.

              Then they targeted F17 with GRUB2 by default but they either didn't install it by default or it sucked as a backend cause I recall using F17 and it wasn't as simple to use as grub-install and update-grub in Ubuntu, and as usual in such situations, the folks tried to portray it the other way around.
              Last edited by mark45; 11-27-2012, 04:54 PM.

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              • #8
                Grub 2 is in F16

                FWIW From my machine:

                Code:
                [foo@foo Downloads]$ more /etc/redhat-release
                Fedora release 16 (Verne)
                [foo@foo Downloads]$ rpm -qa | grep grub
                grubby-8.8-2.fc16.x86_64
                grub2-1.99-13.fc16.3.x86_64
                Perhaps there were some cases where grub2 wsn't the default, but at least in some cases, F16 installed w/ it.
                Also, the release announcement: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_release_announcement

                So grub2 was there, and IIRC I didn't have to do any specific thing to enable it, it came out of the box fcor me. Maybe for some architectures or specific cases it wasn't the default?
                Last edited by TomcaT-SdB; 11-27-2012, 05:40 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TomcaT-SdB View Post
                  FWIW From my machine:

                  Code:
                  [foo@foo Downloads]$ more /etc/redhat-release
                  Fedora release 16 (Verne)
                  [foo@foo Downloads]$ rpm -qa | grep grub
                  grubby-8.8-2.fc16.x86_64
                  grub2-1.99-13.fc16.3.x86_64
                  Perhaps there were some cases where grub2 wsn't the default, but at least in some cases, F16 installed w/ it.
                  Also, the release announcement: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_release_announcement

                  So grub2 was there, and IIRC I didn't have to do any specific thing to enable it, it came out of the box fcor me. Maybe for some architectures or specific cases it wasn't the default?
                  I remember that Fedora, which usually ships bleeding edge packages, was very late with grub2 adoption, and the link you're giving only talks about grub2 shipping, it doesn't say it has become the default one, and the F16 feature list for grub2 still says 85% completion.


                  When I say "installed by default" I also mean used as the default one, afaik Fedora shipped with both of them (I'm not sure which one was the main one) for a while because they realized that they were too late with grub2 adoption yet grub2 wasn't quite ready yet even by Fedora's quality standards.
                  Last edited by mark45; 11-27-2012, 06:06 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    mark45: r1348 was correct and you were wrong all along. When being brusque and authoritative in manner on forum threads, it helps to make sure of your facts first (believe me)...

                    We went to grub2 by default for x86 BIOS fresh installs in Fedora 16. Fedora 16 would also migrate existing installations to grub2 on upgrade if you upgraded via anaconda or preupgrade. Migration was not automatic if upgrading from a previous release via yum, but instructions for manual migration were provided on the yum upgrade instruction page - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgra...-.3E_Fedora_16 .

                    Neither grub-legacy nor grub2 is used for PPC or s390x installs, obviously. For x86 UEFI-native installs we stuck with grub-efi (based on grub-legacy) in Fedora 16 and Fedora 17, and are switching to grub2-efi for such installs only in Fedora 18. However, UEFI-native is still a fairly niche install case, and you made no indication in your original post you were talking about UEFI, so it seems reasonable to assume you were talking about BIOS. We felt grub2-efi was not ready for primetime during the F16 and F17 cycles, but we're happy with it for F18.

                    FWIW, 'grub-install' is a command from upstream grub, nothing specific to Ubuntu, and also exists in Fedora (we rename it to 'grub2-install' to avoid collision with grub-legacy, but it's the same thing). 'update-grub' on Ubuntu is just a convenience alias for 'grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg', and grub-mkconfig is similarly an upstream command available on Fedora as grub2-mkconfig. However, while Ubuntu just uses grub-mkconfig to maintain the grub config file after system installation, Fedora uses grub2-mkconfig on initial installation but on subsequent updates, uses the helper tool 'grubby' to update the grub config file rather than using grub2-mkconfig. This is basically because it's how we did things with grub-legacy (which had no inbuilt configuration file updater tool). There are arguments both for and against switching to the upstream grub2-mkconfig for post-install config file maintenance; personally I'd be happier if we just did that and ditched grubby, but I can see the arguments the other way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm not sure if my system uses (would use) efi or non efi since I'm not a hacker, but I recall clearly being baffled by how the clean install of F16 defaulted to grub (legacy), and I even posted an (angry) comment on either fedora forums or here and it was like "well we're aware of this issue and we're transitioning, it's not easy bla bla etc etc", my MB is Asus "p7p55d-e lx", it's relatively new and I'm not sure which grub it would require or if has anything to do with that.

                      As to grub-install etc, I've used these 2 simple (and working well) commands under Ubuntu for years since Ubuntu adopted grub2, and having to use "grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" instead - thanks but no thanks, I'll stick to Ubuntu.
                      Last edited by mark45; 11-27-2012, 07:35 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                        I'm not sure if my system uses (would use) efi or non efi since I'm not a hacker, but I recall clearly being baffled by how the clean install of F16 defaulted to grub (legacy), and I even posted an (angry) comment on either fedora forums or here and it was like "well we're aware of this issue and we're transitioning, it's not easy bla bla etc etc", my MB is Asus "p7p55d-e lx", it's relatively new and I'm not sure which grub it would require or if has anything to do with that.

                        As to grub-install etc, I've used these 2 simple (and working well) commands under Ubuntu for years since Ubuntu adopted grub2, and having to use "grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" instead - thanks but no thanks, I'll stick to Ubuntu.
                        Your motherboard does not support UEFI. If you did an out-of-the-box F16 install on it you would get grub2. You must be misremembering in some way. I can't find any relevant posts on the forums, but I didn't look crazy hard.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
                          Your motherboard does not support UEFI. If you did an out-of-the-box F16 install on it you would get grub2. You must be misremembering in some way. I can't find any relevant posts on the forums, but I didn't look crazy hard.
                          You're right on this one, I actually downloaded & clean installed F16 right now and despite the boot screen looking like legacy (black-n-white and clunky) grub, it says "grub 1.9" which is technically grub2 or so, so I was wrong on that one, though you're also right that I'm misremembering: the fact that it looks old and didn't detect Ubuntu contributed to this misbelief I guess. But here's the more important part to me as a (grub) user - it (F16) doesn't (and didn't) detect Ubuntu, which to a user it is as bad as using grub legacy - both sucked - F15 with grub legacy and F16 with grub2 (1.99) - while Ubuntu's grub2 worked fine long before (e.g. it detected Fedora).

                          So my question would be - does Fedora 18 detect Ubuntu? And are there plans to use Ubuntu's simpler commands like grub-install & update-grub?
                          Last edited by mark45; 11-27-2012, 09:00 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                            You're right on this one, I actually downloaded & clean installed F16 right now and despite the boot screen looking like legacy (black-n-white and clunky) grub, it says "grub 1.9" which is technically grub2 or so, so I was wrong on that one, though you're also right that I'm misremembering: the fact that it looks old and didn't detect Ubuntu contributed to this misbelief I guess. But here's the more important part to me as a (grub) user - it (F16) doesn't (and didn't) detect Ubuntu, which to a user it is as bad as using grub legacy - both sucked - F15 with grub legacy and F16 with grub2 (1.99) - while Ubuntu's grub2 worked fine long before (e.g. it detected Fedora).

                            So my question would be - does Fedora 18 detect Ubuntu? And are there plans to use Ubuntu's simpler commands like grub-install & update-grub?
                            The detection of existing OSes is a pure grub feature, both we and Ubuntu are simply using that code from upstream grub - when you call grub(2)-mkconfig it does that automatically. If it didn't work for you in F16 then it simply means the version of grub2 in F16 had a bug in that code of some kind. That may have been fixed by the version in F18, it is a much newer version. I've only tried installing F18 alongside Ubuntu once, and the grub detection worked, but that's hardly enough testing for me to guarantee that it always works in all configurations ever, so I'm not going to do that, but hey, the code is there and it fires.

                            Now having said that, even if a Fedora install does detect an Ubuntu install and add it to the bootloader configuration written by the Fedora install process, booting Ubuntu from that config is not necessarily going to be trouble-free, especially as Fedora uses grubby to update the config afterwards, not mkconfig, so it won't update the Ubuntu entry each time the config is updated.

                            I have a giant screed on dual booting I could go into here but won't, but suffice it to say that the traditional x86 way(s) of handling dual/multiple boot are all terrible, terrible hacks and every one of them is badly flawed. Multiboot is one of the few things UEFI at least potentially improves, as it keeps the OS selection stuff in the firmware, which is the only logical place for it. Having five operating systems fighting over how to boot the system, each with their own bootloader and bootloader config - or, equally, having five operating systems fighting to maintain *one* bootloader config - are both recipes for pain, whatever the precise details of your setup. The only way of dual-booting in a non-UEFI setup that I'd be happy with would be not more than one OS per disk, with each OS controlling the MBR on its own disk and never touching any of the others, tbh.

                            I haven't tested the grub2 method extensively but I know how it works, and at least in theory, if you have multiple grub2-based OSes dual-booting and they all use grub(2)-mkconfig to update whichever bootloader config file they decide to touch, it _ought_ to mostly hang together. But it's still a pretty creaky mess. Sigh, PCs.

                            edit: there aren't any clear plans to use grub2-mkconfig to maintain the Fedora bootloader config file in the near future, no. It will probably keep popping up as a discussion topic and happen eventually, though. That's just my guess.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks, since in reality neither Apple nor M$ want to be compatible with desktop Linux (recall the recent news with UEFI/keys/whatever being dependent on silverlight is yet another reminder of M$'s dirty games), the most reasonable way to me is to keep updating grub2 with new code capable of listing new versions of window$ and mac and those unix-like systems that use grub2 - if you're not either of these 3 you're not worth the effort since those other OSes would be like 0.01% of the desktop market - this imo would be straightforward and would save quite a lot of code and maintenance woes.
                              Though this thought doesn't apply to the new uefi/secure boot standard.
                              Last edited by mark45; 11-27-2012, 09:31 PM.

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