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  • #46
    Originally posted by Wilfred View Post
    Really now? Can't you just take a hint from the debian process? Freeze the damn thing and only let stuff through after the maintainers have neatly argued the case and provided a nice clean diff? If not, then don't let the update through.
    That's exactly what we do, and what's described in my post. Maybe read it again.

    The point is that while the _release_ repository is frozen, developers may as well start working on post-release updates. If someone proposes something as a release blocker (i.e. asks for a freeze exception) and we think about it and say 'no, it's not a severe enough issue to break freeze, you can just ship an update that fixes it', why can't they start working on the update right then? What's the point in making everyone wait until after the release is done to start working on post-release updates? There isn't one. So we don't: once the freeze is in place, you can happily keep working on packages to produce updates, it's just that they're now effectively 'streamed' to go out as post-release updates, not into the release package set. Since they can work on the updates perfectly well before the release is actually sent out, and our update testers can test and verify the updates perfectly well before the release is actually sent out, there's equally little point in artificially delaying the updates so they come out, say, a week after release - why not just have them available on release day, if they've gone through the proper testing process? So that's what we do.

    I guess the way it might seem a bit weird if you're not really involved in the process is that we think the changes are safe enough to go out as 0-day updates, but not go into the release package set - isn't that odd? Well, at first it may seem so, but it really isn't. Putting packages into the release package set has consequences which don't apply to them going out as updates. They might cause issues in the image generation process, or they might cause issues during installation, for packages that get baked into the installer; neither of those is a problem if they go out as an update. And in the theoretical case where a 'bad apple' gets through, it's much MUCH better for it to get through as an update than to get into the frozen stream we're working on turning into the release. A bad update can simply be withdrawn or superseded without having any impact on our work to stabilize the release; and even before it's 'officially' discovered and dealt with, it's much easier for an end user to deal with a bad update than with a bad package that sneaks onto the release images. You can just skip the update and stick with the good version of the package from the 'frozen' set.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
      I find it even now a problem that something that is useless for normal usage (file dependencies) and most of the time problematic to use to allow. In debian you have your package versions and formats and you have 10 of them, thats a problem right now, they try to make less diverted, so that you have not 20 possibilities to do the same thing.
      Again, you seem to not know what you are talking about when it comes to rpm world.

      So I think its valid to argue that that can be more negative than good, naturaly I cannot forbid some guys to fork the official rpm and add there stupid stuff, but when this stupid stuff is in the offical redhat implemantation its a problem.
      Your writing does not have any logical sense. The same can happen on dpkg or any package manager. DNF is the next generation Yum package manager not its replacement. When you want to make major in apt-get as preview, would you keep the name during that phase?

      So yes maybe nobody or nearly nobody uses such stuff than its more a theoretical discussion thats not very problematic in the praxis, but there I come to the next point that is really a problem.
      What do you exacty mean?

      In Ubuntu and Debian there are more official packages than in fedora, and as example ubuntu have universe where most of the unofficial packages are into.
      In fedora that is not similar, they dont have a official community "universe" repos, the closest they have to that is rpm-fusion, but there are mixed together packages from different sites. So different qualitys.
      Number of officials packages are irrelevent when some of them are either depreciated or obsolete. RPM Fusion repository is essentially community universe rep that provides packages the official project cannot include due to patents law or closed sources. Ubuntu universe and Debian also got packages from different sites, multiverse repository is a mess.

      so such problems with strict packaging rules are even more important... for universe they have the rpmfusion server, but there seems to be nearly not at least no official quality control.
      That sentence exposes your lack of knowledege from Fedora Project and RPM Fusion which closely follow Fedora Project policies.

      so I agree to have user-packages so that from all stuff there is a package, even if it is not perfectly in documentation as example, but you should have 2 spaces. like univers vs ppa in ubuntu, in fedora there is basicly no universe you get only ppalike stuff from rpmfusion.
      From your logic, RPM Fusion is the closest of Ubuntu universe not ppa. Fedora does have an equivalent of PPA (Personal Package Archives) on http://repos.fedorapeople.org/. For the quality of package, both Fedora Project and RPM Fusion have a testing repository to make sure packages will not break stable release. You post only shows the lack of understanding.

      and its called out from others here, that they need more quality control more freezing and stuff... I agree to that, and to follow the official wiki on chromium way to go, and then only become crap this way and I have to magicaly know that google gives away not only source files but also rpms. Is to much and even that is not very good, because I am not using windows so I want a few repos where I get my software from and I want that maybe a non-google worker saw that package and wrote some integration packages^^.
      You describe a third party that either project has no control.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by finalzone View Post
        You describe a third party that either project has no control.
        I dont said all is bad and something like that, I considerd (do still) to migrate to fedora, so I am not totaly biased against it. I got maybe a bit more aggressive when you said you are not know what you are talking about, so maybe I am wrong on some points, if I wouldnt be a discussion would be pointless because it would be a monologe and you had to listen to and maybe sometimes agree to it.

        I basicly had 2 points 1. was the past problems with rpm which was there (I mean the format or I mean maybe also the package qualities and the package distribution channels) which some guy agreed to on the last site somewhere, so it was not a totaly fantasised problem. Debian was a few years ago better in quality, maybe that changed I dont know about that.

        Then there are some impressions I got as a migrator, I had issues I told, I dont understand that you defend the chromium-situation, why cant fedora either not write anything about chromium or link to the relative site/resource, both would be better than say there is the official (stable) thing thats totaly outdated and totaly unstable. That will happen to other newcomers too.

        I dont like this attitude, when I say something to ubuntu noobs or maybe even archlinux noobs or just people with problems and issues I dont have to degrate them each second sentence and I feel myself not personaly attacked like you seem to do.

        Dont get it... why you cant stop saying that I have no clue about it. even if that would be true, you dont have to put it under my nose (is that a known english saying) always.


        I did nowhere say that all is bad I did not troll, so maybe my critics are bigger than the real issue is, but I dont get why you have to be so personal. Is fedora your holy grale?

        or rpm did you write rpm or whats the problem?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
          I am really considering fedora at the moment as a replacement for ubuntu ^^ but when I read that stuff here I get frustrated ^^. I want a good gnome-shell distribution, I think fedora is the best in this way if you like the normal gnome-shell and want the true gnome-feeling ^^.

          I tried also arch linux but I had problems to install stuff that was experimental what under ubuntu with a ppa did work without problems at the same time. So I am a bit between the chairs right now, I dont like rpm and I think I will not like yum much ^^ so I thought no problem, just use the gui thing, I dont need a softwarecenter with preview images and stars and stuff, but if you say that crashes very often, that is not good in that point. ^^

          pfff really hard days for gnome(shell) users. using always ppas sucks and have old totem versions and stuff because of unity sucks too. gentoo is not got any better than 5-10 years ago only that it has newer programm packages ^^, arch seems also not totaly good usable because there are earlier packages that work in ppas than you get problemles working packages für AUR.

          Debian also sucks when you want the newest gnome-shell ^^ maybe linux mint? but to get it to make it a normal clean gnome-shell its also some work you have to do, because its basicly the distro for people who hate kde, gnome-shell (pure) and unity ^^ basicly for gnome2-lovers that need support to make gnome3 look more like gnome2 or something like that.

          It really sucks for gnome-shell users today.
          Fedora is pretty good. I've been using it for the last four releases or so. It is different from Ubuntu since it doesn't deviate from upstream much so you better be happy with that.
          I rarely use gpk-application since it is so slow, has very filters and can simply start spinning. Yum is nice in that it is much like altitude, but it is missing a few features as well that require one to go to rpm (to look for the files included in a package, for instance).
          If you want a different gui there is always yumex (yum extender). Not as pretty as gpk-application but quite functional. There are other guis as well, but you get the idea.
          Also, Fedora has ppas, they just call them personal repos.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
            I also use softwarecneter very seldom ^^ because if you know the names its just easier to type in aptitude install mesa firefox epiphany empathy libreoffice, than open the center then search the 1. klick to install it, search the 2nd click to install it...

            But if you search ONE Package it can be ok, to use it, its ok if you are unsure if you want this one tool, you have some feedback there a screenshot, you can think about it and maybe install a alternative...

            but yes most of the time I use aptitute ^^

            so yes I will install it (fedora) on one maschine (laptop/desktop) as additionaly thing. I see a few pros about it, better gnome-shell support instlaler that supports lvm (hey they are in this centory not like ubuntu where you have to use the alternative text-installer for that ^^). So I hope its ok. The one big thing a fear a bit, is that I think the community is smaler for fedora, if you look at fedorausers.de it seems one guy did make that, and there are infos that are totaly outdated, i mean really totaly outdated, there stands that in fedora gossip is the default (preinstalled) jabber client, while it seems that project is dead at all ^^.

            while ubuntuusers.de is a really good aktive side, where you maybe not find always completly top notch wiki entries but much closer and often even really at the current state. Also the ubuntu wiki on the homepage from ubuntu looks better quality and quantity and even is eyefriednlier as what fedora has on his sides.
            Askfedora is the site to go for questions.
            I wish they would advertise it more.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
              I dont said all is bad and something like that, I considerd (do still) to migrate to fedora, so I am not totaly biased against it. I got maybe a bit more aggressive when you said you are not know what you are talking about, so maybe I am wrong on some points, if I wouldnt be a discussion would be pointless because it would be a monologe and you had to listen to and maybe sometimes agree to it.

              I basicly had 2 points 1. was the past problems with rpm which was there (I mean the format or I mean maybe also the package qualities and the package distribution channels) which some guy agreed to on the last site somewhere, so it was not a totaly fantasised problem. Debian was a few years ago better in quality, maybe that changed I dont know about that.
              From your example, which package and who was/is the maintainer?

              Then there are some impressions I got as a migrator, I had issues I told, I dont understand that you defend the chromium-situation, why cant fedora either not write anything about chromium or link to the relative site/resource, both would be better than say there is the official (stable) thing thats totaly outdated and totaly unstable. That will happen to other newcomers too.
              See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Chromium. The maintainer is Tom "Spot" Callaway who works on that effort.

              I dont like this attitude, when I say something to ubuntu noobs or maybe even archlinux noobs or just people with problems and issues I dont have to degrate them each second sentence and I feel myself not personaly attacked like you seem to do.
              It is about elaboration and approach of the post although some questions are valid. The real issue is some people do not know how to formulate a good question with minimal perception. Reread your own post and see what went wrong. Regardless the distro of choice, research first before asking.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by liam View Post
                Askfedora is the site to go for questions.
                I wish they would advertise it more.
                thanx for your hints ^^

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                  From your example, which package and who was/is the maintainer?
                  It is long ago like I said, in the past, when I write in the past, I dont mean 2 months ago, more like 5-7 years ago, it was not even fedora at this point, it was something like mandrake or suse (not opensuse) and maybe redhat distribution. Its in the past, so lets forget about it.

                  Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                  See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Chromium. The maintainer is Tom "Spot" Callaway who works on that effort.
                  I found that site, and thats the problem, only small at the last sentence there are the package I have to use, I am not used to test 3 different sources before I get what I want, or to read the complete site and look into the repositories to see what versions are installed. Maybe I am too petted by the german user wiki (ubuntuusers.de) that site/wiki is just great ^^

                  Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                  It is about elaboration and approach of the post although some questions are valid. The real issue is some people do not know how to formulate a good question with minimal perception. Reread your own post and see what went wrong. Regardless the distro of choice, research first before asking.
                  maybe I ranted a bit at the beginning but when I not talk to private people not official company channels I am used to have a bit a direct tone... a bit like linus said in his presentation he is also not very polite he says what he things also very direct but I am able to learn and to change my opinions when I see that I am (partialy) wrong, so I think thats no problem. maybe it is ^^

                  But before I say nothing I maybe go over the goal to get reactions, so I can learn and maybe others can learn some stuff too.

                  I dont flame against upstream developers most of the time, but distributions are something else... and I mixed it a bit flaming a bit feadback a bit suggestions to make something better, so I am not a troll or something.

                  I am just new to it, and wanted to talk about about my experince and about my fears and stuff ^^

                  and for some its good to get feedback what could be better for a beginner. that fedora wiki site isnt the best thats all... I know it now and its ok, but you cant alway rtfm to beginners at least if you maybe some day will become more sucessful as distribution as ubuntu is.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                    That is an EXTREMELY narrow minded point of view. You go ahead and use terminal full time. In fact, why don't you just delete X and everything that depends on it?

                    Fact is that IN ORDER TO COMPETE with microscrap, you need to support those users who are barely able to find the ON button. They aren't going to use the terminal for ANYTHING AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT. If you force everyone to use the terminal, you're DOOMED TO FAIL. Guaranteed.

                    Now go back to your terminal and have fun.

                    BTW: I assume that you're browsing with something like lynx, right?
                    when a Newb comes over from Windows to Linux they should realise before they install a Distro that there isnt gonna be many GUI Apps, Terminal isnt so hard to use if you use Google or man pages. Linux isnt windows.
                    They aren't going to use the terminal for ANYTHING AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT
                    im afraid there gonna have to use the Terminal.

                    BTW: I assume that you're browsing with something like lynx, right?
                    werent you ever told not to assume?

                    there's no need to yell either, my hearing is quite fine thanks
                    Last edited by Anvil; 06-20-2012, 07:10 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                      No it doesn't. Performance limitations are by network and disk write performance, and yum will hit those limits just fine. You can't violate the network or disk by using super magic sauce.
                      What about SSDs and 100Mbps and even 1Gbps links quite common these days? I have some. It's XXI century, after all.

                      Everything can run out of memory. EVERYTHING. No exception.
                      I don't really care about cool theories. I care on result I would feel on my own skin. And I really care to suffer as little as possible from my choice :P.

                      As for "everything" I can give you at least one example where it's not a case. You see, on C you can use thing called "static memory allocation". It's more common for simple firmwares code, but once again, you told "EVERYTHING. No exception", don't you? So for me it's enough to find just 1 case to prove you wrong. In such case there is no memory allocator exists and everything is statically defined at compile time. So you can't run out of memory in this mode for quite obvious reasons. This approach used in high-reliability things. You would be unhappy if microcontroller who controls your car brakes, engine or whatever would suddenly run out of memory, right?

                      And FYI: I've used yum quite successfully on systems with only 64 MB, maybe even 32, though that might not even boot a modern kernel.
                      "Quite" does not counts. Even single failure on remotely controlled machine could be a problem, etc.

                      I suggest that you don't forget to enable swap. There should be no memory problems.
                      It requires some disk space. Possibly comparable to minimal disk image of the whole system. Minimal Debian/Ubuntu for example works fine on 128Mb without any swap. And I had no any single failure attributed to package manager. Unlike with yum.

                      Huh? Well if apt just goes through a blob mess of packages, that must make it EXTREMELY slow.... in fact, this would directly contradict your first point! Guaranteed!
                      Well, cool theories again. But on practice it's what disk-bound. So on SSD and fast network apt completes it's job in a matter of seconds.

                      And when trying to compare similar things fairly, YOU "suxx". You've got a bunch of preconceptions and are bring it out in an ignorant puke of worthless contradictions.
                      I just compared my typical usage patterns. Yum loses on them. I don't see why it's unfair to admit it.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by finalzone View Post

                        See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Chromium. The maintainer is Tom "Spot" Callaway who works on that effort.
                        Omg I tried to go for the link for the google packages, but I did not see that the first time, its not chromium its chrome, I dont want that... so here is a point where it sucks a bit, but ok I have to live with that and use maybe some non-pakaged installer or something crappy ^^

                        but one good news, usb-sound now seems to work, magicly hope thats permanent now ^^

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Thumbs up

                          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
                          Hi. I am the Fedora QA team leader. .............So, what would you recommend we do? Well, obviously, we need to spin up..............Sorry to be so sarcastic, but seriously. Yeesh.
                          Nicely said and as a former programmer (I would like to programm but it is too much stress to put into this area and also some deadlines have to be met or the company might suffer, so >I am programming just for fun now) I couldn't agree more with you. Developing some software in team is always very hard and instead of people being happy about new release and about seeing that the developers are taking care of their customers by releasing the updates they are bit***ing about it. Please all who want to sen some negative comment please first thing about the hard work these people are doing and also bare in mind that the system is free for everyone so the money for making this project to live are needed to be earned by other ways.

                          Keep it go

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