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  • #51
    Originally posted by devius View Post
    That's the exact opposite of my experience with Arch. For the first few months things worked wonderfully, but after a few more months stuff began to break, packages began depending on other packages that weren't updated at the same time or that were updated but had a bug that broke something... in the end, when I finally gave up, my desktop was practically useless (it was KDE though, so I give Arch the benefit of the doubt in this case).
    Well, updates in Arch are to be given special attention. While it's true breakage can happen, most of the time it requires just a little manual intervention to address the problem. (such as merging changes from .pacnew files into your configs), paying attention to Arch news about updates. I've found that when a nasty bug creeps in, usually it is fixed very quickly and comes through as an update. Regardless, in both situations, the solution is often as easy as downgrading until the next update.

    I've only had one time where an update(s) did some harm, that i had little control over. i think it was xorg-server 1.10/11 maybe, and there were some issues with my wacom and gesture recognition software. by the second update after breakage, it was fixed. i just stuck with the last working xorg-server, until it was worked again. (that was like 4-5 days later).

    Other things that i commonly have to deal with on updates (which i don't consider breakage) is having to do things like recompile vmware modules, and re-install nvidia whenever i upgrade my kernel.

    As far as KDE, i don't use it. too much bloat and stuff that i don't really need, so i can't really comment, in any depth, as to how well the KDE experience is in Archlinux. I use Compiz/Gnome3 (without GDM, gnome-panel and some other gnome components) on both my Arch installs. it seems to work well, and complexity is reduced by only using / running the components i need.

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    • #52
      I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

      I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )

      Comment


      • #53
        Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
        I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

        I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )
        Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

        I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

        Comment


        • #54
          Originally posted by ninez View Post
          Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

          I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
          I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.

          Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule

          Comment


          • #55
            Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
            I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.
            Seems like a point release shouldn't cause that big of a problem. Are you sure it wasn't a regression? I would consider your system a little dated, but certainly not that old. One gig of RAM is pretty brutal though, and i would agree - that is probably a big part of the problem, if you are using a slower HDD that would contribute too.

            What i like to do, in regards to having some warning (at least on Archlinux), is to subscribe to the relevant mailing lists, like announcements and such. I usually won't update right away (depending on the packages significance), and consult the forums to see if any of the 'new posts' are bugs/problems i might encounter, before applying them.

            Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
            Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule
            lol.. You agree to what, exactly? That systems that can't run bloated DEs should be swapped out for something lighter?

            ...which is what i was referring to as 'common sense' and did NOT imply that it is 'common sense' to not update your machine. anyway, it is surprising that so much would be packed in a point release that would make your desktop that slow. Did you track what processes where sucking up all of your resources?

            Comment


            • #56
              Originally posted by ninez View Post
              Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

              I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
              KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features. That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.

              Comment


              • #57
                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features.
                Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>

                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.
                So it would appear then that Prophet5's KDE problems probably were a regression or some upgrade issue, since you are able to run it okay - what is your resource usage? and are you using things like plasma - or have you disabled things in KDE, to better work on your hardware?

                I know when i had 4.7 installed on this machine, it was using twice as much resources as the default Gnome(Shell) experience, and 3 times 4X what my trimmed-down Gnome/Compiz desktop uses. it also happens to pull in a lot of packages and take up a lot of space;

                Originally posted by Pacman package manager
                1) kde-wallpapers 2) kdeaccessibility-jovie 3) kdeaccessibility-kaccessible
                4) kdeaccessibility-kmag 5) kdeaccessibility-kmousetool 6) kdeaccessibility-kmouth
                7) kdeadmin-kcron 8) kdeadmin-ksystemlog 9) kdeadmin-kuser
                10) kdeadmin-system-config-printer-kde 11) kdeartwork-aurorae
                12) kdeartwork-colorschemes 13) kdeartwork-desktopthemes 14) kdeartwork-emoticons
                15) kdeartwork-iconthemes 16) kdeartwork-kscreensaver 17) kdeartwork-sounds
                18) kdeartwork-styles 19) kdeartwork-wallpapers 20) kdeartwork-weatherwallpapers
                21) kdebase-dolphin 22) kdebase-kdepasswd 23) kdebase-kdialog
                24) kdebase-keditbookmarks 25) kdebase-kfind 26) kdebase-konq-plugins
                27) kdebase-konqueror 28) kdebase-konsole 29) kdebase-kwrite 30) kdebase-plasma
                31) kdebase-workspace 32) kdeedu-analitza 33) kdeedu-blinken 34) kdeedu-cantor
                35) kdeedu-kalgebra 36) kdeedu-kalzium 37) kdeedu-kanagram 38) kdeedu-kbruch
                39) kdeedu-kgeography 40) kdeedu-khangman 41) kdeedu-kig 42) kdeedu-kiten
                43) kdeedu-klettres 44) kdeedu-kmplot 45) kdeedu-kstars 46) kdeedu-ktouch
                47) kdeedu-kturtle 48) kdeedu-kwordquiz 49) kdeedu-marble 50) kdeedu-parley
                51) kdeedu-rocs 52) kdeedu-step 53) kdegames-bomber 54) kdegames-bovo
                55) kdegames-granatier 56) kdegames-kajongg 57) kdegames-kapman 58) kdegames-katomic
                59) kdegames-kbattleship 60) kdegames-kblackbox 61) kdegames-kblocks
                62) kdegames-kbounce 63) kdegames-kbreakout 64) kdegames-kdiamond
                65) kdegames-kfourinline 66) kdegames-kgoldrunner 67) kdegames-kigo
                68) kdegames-killbots 69) kdegames-kiriki 70) kdegames-kjumpingcube
                71) kdegames-klickety 72) kdegames-klines 73) kdegames-kmahjongg 74) kdegames-kmines
                75) kdegames-knetwalk 76) kdegames-kolf 77) kdegames-kollision 78) kdegames-konquest
                79) kdegames-kpatience 80) kdegames-kreversi 81) kdegames-kshisen 82) kdegames-ksirk
                83) kdegames-kspaceduel 84) kdegames-ksquares 85) kdegames-ksudoku
                86) kdegames-ktron 87) kdegames-ktuberling 88) kdegames-kubrick 89) kdegames-lskat
                90) kdegames-palapeli 91) kdegraphics-gwenview 92) kdegraphics-kamera
                93) kdegraphics-kcolorchooser 94) kdegraphics-kgamma 95) kdegraphics-kolourpaint
                96) kdegraphics-kruler 97) kdegraphics-ksnapshot 98) kdegraphics-okular
                99) kdemultimedia-dragonplayer 100) kdemultimedia-ffmpegthumbs 101) kdemultimedia-juk
                102) kdemultimedia-kioslave 103) kdemultimedia-kmix 104) kdemultimedia-kscd
                105) kdemultimedia-mplayerthumbs 106) kdenetwork-filesharing 107) kdenetwork-kdnssd
                108) kdenetwork-kget 109) kdenetwork-kopete 110) kdenetwork-kppp
                111) kdenetwork-krdc 112) kdenetwork-krfb 113) kdepim-akonadiconsole
                114) kdepim-akregator 115) kdepim-blogilo 116) kdepim-console
                117) kdepim-kaddressbook 118) kdepim-kalarm 119) kdepim-kjots 120) kdepim-kleopatra
                121) kdepim-kmail 122) kdepim-knode 123) kdepim-knotes 124) kdepim-kontact
                125) kdepim-korganizer 126) kdepim-kresources 127) kdepim-ktimetracker
                128) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bball 129) kdeplasma-addons-applets-binary-clock
                130) kdeplasma-addons-applets-blackboard 131) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bookmarks
                132) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bubblemon 133) kdeplasma-addons-applets-calculator
                134) kdeplasma-addons-applets-charselect 135) kdeplasma-addons-applets-comic
                136) kdeplasma-addons-applets-community 137) kdeplasma-addons-applets-dict
                138) kdeplasma-addons-applets-eyes 139) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fifteenpuzzle
                140) kdeplasma-addons-applets-filewatcher 141) kdeplasma-addons-applets-frame
                142) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fuzzy-clock 143) kdeplasma-addons-applets-icontasks
                144) kdeplasma-addons-applets-incomingmsg 145) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kdeobservatory
                146) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kimpanel 147) kdeplasma-addons-applets-knowledgebase
                148) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kolourpicker 149) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konqprofiles
                150) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konsoleprofiles 151) kdeplasma-addons-applets-lancelot
                152) kdeplasma-addons-applets-leavenote 153) kdeplasma-addons-applets-life
                154) kdeplasma-addons-applets-luna 155) kdeplasma-addons-applets-magnifique
                156) kdeplasma-addons-applets-mediaplayer 157) kdeplasma-addons-applets-microblog
                158) kdeplasma-addons-applets-news 159) kdeplasma-addons-applets-notes
                160) kdeplasma-addons-applets-nowplaying 161) kdeplasma-addons-applets-paste
                162) kdeplasma-addons-applets-pastebin 163) kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard
                164) kdeplasma-addons-applets-previewer 165) kdeplasma-addons-applets-qalculate
                166) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rememberthemilk 167) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rssnow
                168) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdashboard 169) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdesktop
                170) kdeplasma-addons-applets-social-news 171) kdeplasma-addons-applets-spellcheck
                172) kdeplasma-addons-applets-systemloadviewer 173) kdeplasma-addons-applets-timer
                174) kdeplasma-addons-applets-unitconverter 175) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weather
                176) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weatherstation 177) kdeplasma-addons-applets-webslice
                178) kdeplasma-addons-containments 179) kdeplasma-addons-runners-audioplayercontrol
                180) kdeplasma-addons-runners-browserhistory 181) kdeplasma-addons-runners-characters
                182) kdeplasma-addons-runners-contacts 183) kdeplasma-addons-runners-converter
                184) kdeplasma-addons-runners-datetime 185) kdeplasma-addons-runners-events
                186) kdeplasma-addons-runners-katesessions
                187) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konquerorsessions
                188) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konsolesessions 189) kdeplasma-addons-runners-kopete
                190) kdeplasma-addons-runners-mediawiki 191) kdeplasma-addons-runners-spellchecker
                192) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-mandelbrot 193) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-marble
                194) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-pattern 195) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-potd
                196) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-virus 197) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-weather
                198) kdesdk-cervisia 199) kdesdk-dolphin-plugins 200) kdesdk-kapptemplate
                201) kdesdk-kate 202) kdesdk-kcachegrind 203) kdesdk-kdeaccounts-plugin
                204) kdesdk-kdepalettes 205) kdesdk-kioslave 206) kdesdk-kmtrace 207) kdesdk-kompare
                208) kdesdk-kpartloader 209) kdesdk-kprofilemethod 210) kdesdk-kstartperf
                211) kdesdk-kuiviewer 212) kdesdk-lokalize 213) kdesdk-okteta 214) kdesdk-poxml
                215) kdesdk-scripts 216) kdesdk-strigi-analyzer 217) kdesdk-umbrello
                218) kdetoys-amor 219) kdetoys-kteatime 220) kdetoys-ktux 221) kdeutils-ark
                222) kdeutils-filelight 223) kdeutils-kcalc 224) kdeutils-kcharselect
                225) kdeutils-kdf 226) kdeutils-kfloppy 227) kdeutils-kgpg
                228) kdeutils-kremotecontrol 229) kdeutils-ksecrets 230) kdeutils-ktimer
                231) kdeutils-kwallet 232) kdeutils-printer-applet 233) kdeutils-superkaramba
                234) kdeutils-sweeper 235) kdewebdev-kfilereplace 236) kdewebdev-kimagemapeditor
                237) kdewebdev-klinkstatus 238) kdewebdev-kommander
                KDE pulls in 240 packages, not including the packages that i already have installed (such as QT4). Now, some of these i can ditch, but it's still quite large. if i was to do the same thing for Gnome - i would see like 50 packages (if even). So yes, KDE is bloated compared to most other DEs, it is feature rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloated. if i had KDE installed, i would be using very few of the features offered by the DE - therefore, i would be running a bloated desktop, because that is exactly what software bloat is - including more and more features that aren't being used. Which is why i ditched KDE the last time i delved in it.

                Comment


                • #58
                  The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.

                  This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
                  kdebase4-workspace
                  dolphin
                  kwin
                  kdebase4-session
                  kwrite
                  plasmoid-folderview
                  that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P

                  ok, ok, for reference here is the full list of recommended packages to pull with the ones above:
                  avahi
                  pulseaudio
                  MozillaFirefox
                  susehelp
                  desktop-data-openSUSE
                  gdb
                  kwebkitpart
                  droid-fonts
                  xdg-user-dirs
                  plasma-addons
                  kdm
                  polkit-default-privs
                  pulseaudio-utils
                  yast2-control-center-qt
                  skanlite
                  konqueror
                  pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
                  pulseaudio-module-lirc
                  pulseaudio-module-x11
                  pulseaudio-module-zeroconf
                  alsa-plugins-pulse
                  kaddressbook
                  kmail
                  knotes
                  konsole
                  kontact
                  korganizer
                  soprano-backend-redland
                  oxygen-gtk
                  akregator
                  kdepim4-wizards
                  kio_iso
                  plasmoid-networkmanagement
                  plasmoid-quickaccess
                  soprano-backend-virtuoso
                  kcm_gtk
                  kdebase4-nsplugin
                  kdenetwork4-filesharing
                  kdepasswd
                  keditbookmarks
                  kvkbd
                  pinentry-qt4
                  pulseaudio-module-jack
                  synaptiks
                  Still far from even 100, not to mention 240.
                  Last edited by Cyber Killer; 06-18-2012, 10:32 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                    The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.
                    That was there to show how much 'crap' there is in KDE land. Furthermore, yes i posted the output from the kde meta package, that does not mean i would have to install all of that. KDE is broken up in Arch, you can install whatever you like.

                    Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                    This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
                    that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P
                    And those 6 packages still are more resource heavy than any other DE that i've ever used in linux land.

                    EDIT: AHA! now you change your tune - 'sorry i didn't mean 6 - i really mean you need a bunch.' lol...and on closer inspection i get i would find that i actually would need more than you are posting to have a 'good experience'...
                    Last edited by ninez; 06-18-2012, 10:40 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      You should also check how much crap there is in GNOME land. Hint: a comparable amount, as both of these DE's strive for feature completeness so they each have their respective apps for everything that you might want to do. The difference is that the KDE apps use a common set of features, stuff like e.g. the ability to put a URL in the file open dialog and it will get the file from the net and open it.

                      Anyway - why the hate? You don't like large DE's, then it's your choice, be happy with your LXDE.

                      Comment

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