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  • #61
    Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
    You should also check how much crap there is in GNOME land. Hint: a comparable amount, as both of these DE's strive for feature completeness so they each have their respective apps for everything that you might want to do. The difference is that the KDE apps use a common set of features, stuff like e.g. the ability to put a URL in the file open dialog and it will get the file from the net and open it.

    Anyway - why the hate? You don't like large DE's, then it's your choice, be happy with your LXDE.
    When did i say i 'hated' KDE, exactly?? in fact, i said the opposite (i said KDE is good!). Saying it's bloated doesn't mean i hate it, it means i think it is bloated. Hate and bloat are not the same thing.

    and FYI i don't use LXDE. i don't know where you got that from... i don't use a DM (kdm/GDM/slim) as i prefer to start my machine and be greeted by the commandline (init 3 essentially). then startx with every component that i plan to use listed. i use compiz-bzr as WM. My desktop 'leans' towards Gnome, but doesn't actually use big parts of the Gnome Desktop (no GS, obviously) no network manager, no gnome-panel, no pulseaudio, etc.

    I did try to have a lite KDE desktop, at one point - but doing what i am doing now - works much better, and is less-resource heavy.
    Last edited by ninez; 06-18-2012, 10:58 AM.

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    • #62
      I tried the 12.2 beta version but ... it didn't have Mesa installed by default. I was scratching my head because i didn't know why i wasn't able to have have any efects on kde... and that's a funny disaster.

      I was waiting for the 12.2 release since the kernel has all the proper drivers for my laptop... but im not gonna wait anymore. I had to install fedora, wich to my surprise works very well and is up to date, almost like Archlinux

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      • #63
        Originally posted by ninez View Post
        Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>
        Odd comparison. Despite the number of packages, you could still install KDE something like five times in the disk space required by the basic Vista/7 install. More, if you remove the additions in KDE that put it above parity with the feature set of Windows.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by ninez View Post
          Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>



          So it would appear then that Prophet5's KDE problems probably were a regression or some upgrade issue, since you are able to run it okay - what is your resource usage? and are you using things like plasma - or have you disabled things in KDE, to better work on your hardware?

          I know when i had 4.7 installed on this machine, it was using twice as much resources as the default Gnome(Shell) experience, and 3 times 4X what my trimmed-down Gnome/Compiz desktop uses. it also happens to pull in a lot of packages and take up a lot of space;



          KDE pulls in 240 packages, not including the packages that i already have installed (such as QT4). Now, some of these i can ditch, but it's still quite large. if i was to do the same thing for Gnome - i would see like 50 packages (if even). So yes, KDE is bloated compared to most other DEs, it is feature rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloated. if i had KDE installed, i would be using very few of the features offered by the DE - therefore, i would be running a bloated desktop, because that is exactly what software bloat is - including more and more features that aren't being used. Which is why i ditched KDE the last time i delved in it.

          The enormous list of default packages in the KDE group in no way indicates how much bloat the desktop environment has. You've essentially shown us that KDE has many games and addons but the fact that they are under the KDE group is up to the Arch maintainers. These games and addons aren't loaded on start up or some such.

          In my experience KDE 4.8.x, Gnome shell, and Unity are all roughly equivalent when it comes to legitimate bloat. If you have an ancient computer I could somewhat understand the concern but people spend far too much time worrying about "bloat." I have no issues with any of the desktop environments being slow.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by dalingrin View Post
            The enormous list of default packages in the KDE group in no way indicates how much bloat the desktop environment has. You've essentially shown us that KDE has many games and addons but the fact that they are under the KDE group is up to the Arch maintainers. These games and addons aren't loaded on start up or some such.
            Already addressed in previous post. KDE is modular in Arch - but even keeping it minimal, it is bloated.

            Originally posted by dalingrin View Post
            In my experience KDE 4.8.x, Gnome shell, and Unity are all roughly equivalent when it comes to legitimate bloat. If you have an ancient computer I could somewhat understand the concern but people spend far too much time worrying about "bloat." I have no issues with any of the desktop environments being slow.
            that isn't true on any machine, when i compare GS to KDE (i don't use Ubuntu, so no unity comparison). And again, you should probably go back and read how the discussion evolved - we were talking about DEs on slower H/W.

            I have no issues with DEs being slow, either ~ i7 and Phenom II x4 (both using Nvidia h/w (and blob). plus, a couple core2duo's - but they aren't in heavy use... And regardless, i prefer a clean system, with a more KISS approach. You may not care if your system is bloated, but i would prefer to not have that and reduce complexity.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by ninez View Post
              Already addressed in previous post. KDE is modular in Arch - but even keeping it minimal, it is bloated.



              that isn't true on any machine, when i compare GS to KDE (i don't use Ubuntu, so no unity comparison). And again, you should probably go back and read how the discussion evolved - we were talking about DEs on slower H/W.

              I have no issues with DEs being slow, either ~ i7 and Phenom II x4 (both using Nvidia h/w (and blob). plus, a couple core2duo's - but they aren't in heavy use... And regardless, i prefer a clean system, with a more KISS approach. You may not care if your system is bloated, but i would prefer to not have that and reduce complexity.
              1. "Bloated" is a word that gets thrown around a lot, but it's really meaningless to a discussion unless it's defined.

              2. What complexity do you feel is achieved by stripping away features? As Linus Torvalds observed of Gnome, there's nothing wrong with designing for simplicity, but there is something wrong with designing only for simplicity. He saw that Gnome developers were having many discussions about what features they could remove from the product to make it "simpler". The problem is that eventually people are going to want to do more than the most basic tasks, and a KISS system either isn't going to let them or it is going to be harder to do them.

              3. I'll be honest, your earlier description "i don't use a DM (kdm/GDM/slim) as i prefer to start my machine and be greeted by the commandline (init 3 essentially). then startx with every component that i plan to use listed." sounds a lot like OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder). Does the thought of this "bloat" lurking on your system cause you a lot of anxiety? OCPD involves anxiety when the person isn't able to control every facet of their environment/believes they're the only person who can do it "right".

              4. I just tried installing OpenSUSE with KDE and with Gnome in a virtual machine. I opted to install the "Base Development" meta-package that includes a compiler and related tools. On 64-bit, it's a 3.4GB total install for the system with KDE (I think it's 3.1GB before the compiling tools) and 3.1GB for Gnome. Some of that 300MB difference is probably accounted for by package differences between the two (Evolution vs. K-Mail, Banshee vs. Amarok, Brasero vs. K3b, etc.)

              5. As was pointed out earlier, Windows 7 Ultimate takes up 14GB on install (some of that may be for swap file). That only accounts for the base desktop plus Internet Explorer. Meanwhile, OpenSUSE KDE is 3.1GB with full office suite, IRC client, IM client, bittorrent client, Firefox, GIMP, music manager, digital photo manager, Java, PIM suite, etc. Windows 7 can't even view PDFs or open a .zip file out of the box with that 14 GB install. Compared to the de facto desktop standard, Linux + KDE are incredibly efficient, not bloated.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                1. "Bloated" is a word that gets thrown around a lot, but it's really meaningless to a discussion unless it's defined.
                'software bloat'. it is well-defined, and you don't need to define it everytime you use it in a conversation. People can easily look it up if they are really that confused.

                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                2. What complexity do you feel is achieved by stripping away features? As Linus Torvalds observed of Gnome, there's nothing wrong with designing for simplicity, but there is something wrong with designing only for simplicity. He saw that Gnome developers were having many discussions about what features they could remove from the product to make it "simpler". The problem is that eventually people are going to want to do more than the most basic tasks, and a KISS system either isn't going to let them or it is going to be harder to do them.
                If you think having a KISS approach means that you are stripping out features, you would be wrong. it doesn't even relate to linus' comments about gnome. Gnome was dumbing down there interface, and cutting useful features.

                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                3. I'll be honest, your earlier description "i don't use a DM (kdm/GDM/slim) as i prefer to start my machine and be greeted by the commandline (init 3 essentially). then startx with every component that i plan to use listed." sounds a lot like OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder). Does the thought of this "bloat" lurking on your system cause you a lot of anxiety? OCPD involves anxiety when the person isn't able to control every facet of their environment/believes they're the only person who can do it "right".
                LOL. well thanks for your diagnosis - ya fucking putz. I like to be greeted by CLI because I like to be greeted by CLI - that doesn't mean OCPD - and you are a retard to think it does. I grew up on interfaces like that, and if it makes you feel any better i do have a greeter for bash ..and NO - it does not cause me anxiety, i just prefer a system that doesn't have a lot of extra crap running, because 1. it is more efficient, 2 it is simpler to manage, 3. less code running (ideally) less bugs or potential of them being introduced. (there are more reasons, but those 3 should be more than good). And FYI i know what OCPD is...

                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                4. I just tried installing OpenSUSE with KDE and with Gnome in a virtual machine. I opted to install the "Base Development" meta-package that includes a compiler and related tools. On 64-bit, it's a 3.4GB total install for the system with KDE (I think it's 3.1GB before the compiling tools) and 3.1GB for Gnome. Some of that 300MB difference is probably accounted for by package differences between the two (Evolution vs. K-Mail, Banshee vs. Amarok, Brasero vs. K3b, etc.)
                size is only one consideration, you have to look at everything running, what is being used, what isnt, etc.

                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                5. As was pointed out earlier, Windows 7 Ultimate takes up 14GB on install (some of that may be for swap file). That only accounts for the base desktop plus Internet Explorer. Meanwhile, OpenSUSE KDE is 3.1GB with full office suite, IRC client, IM client, bittorrent client, Firefox, GIMP, music manager, digital photo manager, Java, PIM suite, etc. Windows 7 can't even view PDFs or open a .zip file out of the box with that 14 GB install. Compared to the de facto desktop standard, Linux + KDE are incredibly efficient, not bloated.
                Windows is the king of bloatware, saying KDE is incredibly efficient because windows is more bloated, doesn't really say a whole lot, other than KDE has managed NOT to be the king of bloatedness.

                anyway, thanks for your internet forum medical diagnosis and pointing out that KDE isn't as bloated as windows. and AFAIK - i was only comparing it to other Linux DEs (i could care less about windows, since i don't use it on any machine).

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                • #68
                  kde runs well on my puny old netbook. Far faster than gnome 3.4, though I use gnome because I like its approach. My netbook is a samsung nc10 and about as weedy as any computer I've used in a very long time.


                  I like kde but it does feel clumsy and awkward to use on default settings. It take a lot of work to get it how I'd like it whilst gnome 3 is almost perfect after simply installing a few extensions.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    'software bloat'. it is well-defined, and you don't need to define it everytime you use it in a conversation. People can easily look it up if they are really that confused.
                    No it isn't.

                    Do you mean:

                    1. The UI is too busy, has too many buttons/options, is too confusing?
                    2. The program takes too much memory when running?
                    3. The program takes too much disk space?
                    4. The program has too many dependencies?
                    5. The program is slow while running? (throughput)
                    6. The program is not responsive while running? (latency)
                    7. The program is too slow to start?
                    8. I don't like the program, so i'll call it bloated?

                    All these, and more, are commonly used as the definition of "software bloat". Some of them are even related, but for the most part these are all very separate issues. People who try to conflate everything together are generally just trolling.
                    Last edited by smitty3268; 06-18-2012, 09:46 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                      No it isn't.

                      Do you mean:

                      1. The UI is too busy, has too many buttons/options, is too confusing?
                      2. The program takes too much memory when running?
                      3. The program takes too much disk space?
                      4. The program has too many dependencies?
                      5. The program is slow while running? (throughput)
                      6. The program is not responsive while running? (latency)
                      7. The program is too slow to start?
                      8. I don't like the program, so i'll call it bloated?

                      All these, and more, are commonly used as the definition of "software bloat". Some of them are even related, but for the most part these are all very separate issues. People who try to conflate everything together are generally just trolling.
                      Software bloat is VERY well defined, so i completely disagree with you.

                      " Software bloat is a process whereby successive versions of a computer program include an increasing proportion of unnecessary features that are not used by end users, or generally use more system resources than necessary, while offering little or no benefit to its users. "

                      although, this is just wikipedia, there are many examples around the net, that pretty much equate to this, or some definition very similar. Other things to consider when talking about software bloat are things like 'Wirth's law' and 'freedman's Law'....

                      Some of your above list can be bi-products of software bloat (some are not, as you suggested), but don't automagically suggest bloat, by default. furthermore, i've already had to state, that i like KDE - so i don't even understand why you even wrote #8 ...

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ninez View Post
                        Software bloat is VERY well defined, so i completely disagree with you.

                        " Software bloat is a process whereby successive versions of a computer program include an increasing proportion of unnecessary features that are not used by end users, or generally use more system resources than necessary, while offering little or no benefit to its users. "
                        That's one definition, but the point is it's rather useless when it comes down to defining exactly what is wrong - it's an overarching theme, or idea, that covers a lot of different specific ideas inside it.

                        It seems you are saying that KDE offers too many features you don't use, and provides no additional value to you.

                        Ok, that's a personal opinion. It may be true for you - it's not for others. In this case, it would be more accurate to state that "for me, KDE is bloated" rather than making the generalizing statement that makes it sounds like that is true for everyone.

                        Some of your above list can be bi-products of software bloat (some are not, as you suggested), but don't automagically suggest bloat, by default. furthermore, i've already had to state, that i like KDE - so i don't even understand why you even wrote #8 ...
                        I wrote #8 because it is a common case when people claim that software is bloated. I wasn't directing that towards you in any way, just the general term of "bloat".
                        Last edited by smitty3268; 06-18-2012, 10:36 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Mmmm... Going back a bit I will have to say that my performance issue was most likely a regression or config issue. It was Kubuntu after all

                          To contradict my previous post about OpenSuse 12.1 being "the same", It was snappier than my Kubuntu update and usable after I disabled indexing. I got rid of it because I had no sound with games (Cold War, Doom 3 etc...) and all the usual tricks didn't work. I know many people move on from playing these old games, but I enjoy them, paid for them and want to play them when I feel like it and not have to fight with the OS to do so. So I reverted to the last distro I used that was fast and had less sound hassles (ie tricks worked), however I did prefer OS 12.1 over Kubuntu

                          So to bring it back to the thread topic, perhaps a set schedule is not the way to go with OpenSuse, but release "when it's ready" would be preferable to provide the most complete experience including getting sound issues with legacy software working out of the box. However an "Open Ended deadline" would be counter productive too.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                            That's one definition, but the point is it's rather useless when it comes down to defining exactly what is wrong - it's an overarching theme, or idea, that covers a lot of different specific ideas inside it.
                            I don't think the term 'software bloat' is supposed to define specifics....

                            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                            It seems you are saying that KDE offers too many features you don't use, and provides no additional value to you.

                            Ok, that's a personal opinion. It may be true for you - it's not for others. In this case, it would be more accurate to state that "for me, KDE is bloated" rather than making the generalizing statement that makes it sounds like that is true for everyone.
                            Fair enough, and well said. KDE is too bloated for me, and i do find that it offers many things that i don't need/want. I do however, like many of it's features, style and i think the KDE developers have come up with a ton of good tech. over the years (and continue too). That said, i could substitute 'KDE' above with 'Windows' ~ which would mean windows isn't bloated, either. in fact, you could substitute any software in there and arrive to that conclusion.

                            So i guess (from your point of view) Software Bloat doesn't exist - because someone is using those features somewhere (even if it's a minority), thus negating any possibility of any software being considered heavy/bloated.

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                            • #74
                              So i guess (from your point of view) Software Bloat doesn't exist - because someone is using those features somewhere (even if it's a minority), thus negating any possibility of any software being considered heavy/bloated.
                              Exactly my point of view also.

                              KDE also has one thing that no other DE has to this extent - easy configurability.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                                Exactly my point of view also.
                                which your entitled to, but with that kind of logic (that 'someone' might be using it), then all legacy code should be supported FOREVER on all platforms (which is terrible IMHO). No old drivers should be killed off, removed from xorg, linux kernel, etc.... MacOSX 10.7+ would still use Rosetta, etc. Plus, the reality is software bloat does exist - and has been mentioned over and over again, by programmers for years and years and years. Everyone from Bill gates to Google to Wirth, etc, etc, etc.

                                Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                                KDE also has one thing that no other DE has to this extent - easy configurability.
                                yup. point and click, and your done. Personally, i think that is one of KDE's nicest features.
                                Last edited by ninez; 06-20-2012, 12:11 PM.

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