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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
    I've been using GNU/Linux since 2001, I'm a professional sysadmin. I customize my system to a large degree...
    So the second one. See, it's important to realise that people like you and I are outliers. So even fixing trivial things like a bad X config are beyond the ken of most users when they can't even access documentation (because they don't, for the most part, know how to live in a TTY-only world).

    Originally posted by Nevertime View Post
    Would a rolling release be any better upgrading in small chunks over an 8 month period than a upgrade every 8 months if distro upgrades are so poor?
    No, at least for Gentoo's stable users breakage is pretty rare, and only when upstream does something exceptionally dumb (libpng, for example). And even then, a lot of time gets spent on making it as painless as possible.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Wyatt View Post
      So the second one. See, it's important to realise that people like you and I are outliers. So even fixing trivial things like a bad X config are beyond the ken of most users when they can't even access documentation (because they don't, for the most part, know how to live in a TTY-only world).
      I agree with you that the chances of a lot of crap getting broken with an upgrade is very high. However I don't think that people who fix their own computers are so rare in the linux world. The first time I ever installed a linux distro on my own I had no knowledge whatsoever about how *nix work and I had to work around the fact that the installer couldn't detect my soft-raid array.

      People who don't fix their computers when using linux distros also don't fix them with "other" operating systems. There's always a friend who knows how to do it and that will be willing to help. What is lacking is probably professional support in computers stores for users who would like to use linux distros but can't be bothered to fix their system if something goes wrong.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by LenS View Post
        I always thought Gentoo was strictly open source, but I'm not that familiar with it, so I could be wrong.
        Gentoo is about choice and providing the tools that enable users to choose what they want. You can tell the package manager which particular licenses are acceptable to you and which aren't.

        That said, we have a policy that proprietary software is not going to hinder the progress of Gentoo. And expect no sympathy if you face issues that arise from using proprietary software. So if there is a new X server that doesn't work with your proprietary graphics driver, or if blue faces appear in YouTube videos thanks to latest Flash, that is strictly your problem.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
          Reinstallation can be time consuming and annoying, but if you don't reinstall often, you're really missing out, because over time things like old configuration pile up and don't work right with newer software. Every time I do a reinstall, the system gets more stable, faster, unified, and I learn something new about the system in the process. Also, like I mentioned before, reinstallation is a natural breakpoint for updating some of the core features. Last time I reinstalled my primary OS, I switched from ALSA to PulseAudio. Before that was a switch from SysVinit to systemd. And before that a switch from EXT4 to Btrfs. It seems that it will continue to be that way in the future, too, as the next openSUSE release will see a GRUB switch from legacy to 2. You normally would miss out of those developments if you didn't reinstall. And a long enough time passes with software evolving fast enough between releases that there is usually something new to try out on each of them.
          I think in a binary distro, this (sort of) applies but definitely is not universal for distros and certainly not true of rolling releases. Using Archlinux, none of what you are saying really applies. The 'core' system will continue to be updated, 'old' configs don't pile up and break new software, etc. In the case of things like PA, systemd, grub, etc ~ none require a 'fresh' install - in fact, any of those take no more than just a few minutes to setup (i setup systemd, on a 2yr old Arch system, a few days ago). BTRFS - depending on what you are doing might require a fresh install, but other than that none of these things require a fresh install to work properly.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by ninez View Post
            Using Archlinux, none of what you are saying really applies. The 'core' system will continue to be updated, 'old' configs don't pile up and break new software, etc. (...), but other than that none of these things require a fresh install to work properly.
            That's the exact opposite of my experience with Arch. For the first few months things worked wonderfully, but after a few more months stuff began to break, packages began depending on other packages that weren't updated at the same time or that were updated but had a bug that broke something... in the end, when I finally gave up, my desktop was practically useless (it was KDE though, so I give Arch the benefit of the doubt in this case).

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by devius View Post
              That's the exact opposite of my experience with Arch. For the first few months things worked wonderfully, but after a few more months stuff began to break, packages began depending on other packages that weren't updated at the same time or that were updated but had a bug that broke something... in the end, when I finally gave up, my desktop was practically useless (it was KDE though, so I give Arch the benefit of the doubt in this case).
              Well, updates in Arch are to be given special attention. While it's true breakage can happen, most of the time it requires just a little manual intervention to address the problem. (such as merging changes from .pacnew files into your configs), paying attention to Arch news about updates. I've found that when a nasty bug creeps in, usually it is fixed very quickly and comes through as an update. Regardless, in both situations, the solution is often as easy as downgrading until the next update.

              I've only had one time where an update(s) did some harm, that i had little control over. i think it was xorg-server 1.10/11 maybe, and there were some issues with my wacom and gesture recognition software. by the second update after breakage, it was fixed. i just stuck with the last working xorg-server, until it was worked again. (that was like 4-5 days later).

              Other things that i commonly have to deal with on updates (which i don't consider breakage) is having to do things like recompile vmware modules, and re-install nvidia whenever i upgrade my kernel.

              As far as KDE, i don't use it. too much bloat and stuff that i don't really need, so i can't really comment, in any depth, as to how well the KDE experience is in Archlinux. I use Compiz/Gnome3 (without GDM, gnome-panel and some other gnome components) on both my Arch installs. it seems to work well, and complexity is reduced by only using / running the components i need.

              Comment


              • #52
                I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

                I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
                  I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

                  I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )
                  Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

                  I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

                    I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
                    I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.

                    Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
                      I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.
                      Seems like a point release shouldn't cause that big of a problem. Are you sure it wasn't a regression? I would consider your system a little dated, but certainly not that old. One gig of RAM is pretty brutal though, and i would agree - that is probably a big part of the problem, if you are using a slower HDD that would contribute too.

                      What i like to do, in regards to having some warning (at least on Archlinux), is to subscribe to the relevant mailing lists, like announcements and such. I usually won't update right away (depending on the packages significance), and consult the forums to see if any of the 'new posts' are bugs/problems i might encounter, before applying them.

                      Originally posted by prophet5 View Post
                      Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule
                      lol.. You agree to what, exactly? That systems that can't run bloated DEs should be swapped out for something lighter?

                      ...which is what i was referring to as 'common sense' and did NOT imply that it is 'common sense' to not update your machine. anyway, it is surprising that so much would be packed in a point release that would make your desktop that slow. Did you track what processes where sucking up all of your resources?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ninez View Post
                        Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

                        I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
                        KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features. That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                          KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features.
                          Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>

                          Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                          That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.
                          So it would appear then that Prophet5's KDE problems probably were a regression or some upgrade issue, since you are able to run it okay - what is your resource usage? and are you using things like plasma - or have you disabled things in KDE, to better work on your hardware?

                          I know when i had 4.7 installed on this machine, it was using twice as much resources as the default Gnome(Shell) experience, and 3 times 4X what my trimmed-down Gnome/Compiz desktop uses. it also happens to pull in a lot of packages and take up a lot of space;

                          Originally posted by Pacman package manager
                          1) kde-wallpapers 2) kdeaccessibility-jovie 3) kdeaccessibility-kaccessible
                          4) kdeaccessibility-kmag 5) kdeaccessibility-kmousetool 6) kdeaccessibility-kmouth
                          7) kdeadmin-kcron 8) kdeadmin-ksystemlog 9) kdeadmin-kuser
                          10) kdeadmin-system-config-printer-kde 11) kdeartwork-aurorae
                          12) kdeartwork-colorschemes 13) kdeartwork-desktopthemes 14) kdeartwork-emoticons
                          15) kdeartwork-iconthemes 16) kdeartwork-kscreensaver 17) kdeartwork-sounds
                          18) kdeartwork-styles 19) kdeartwork-wallpapers 20) kdeartwork-weatherwallpapers
                          21) kdebase-dolphin 22) kdebase-kdepasswd 23) kdebase-kdialog
                          24) kdebase-keditbookmarks 25) kdebase-kfind 26) kdebase-konq-plugins
                          27) kdebase-konqueror 28) kdebase-konsole 29) kdebase-kwrite 30) kdebase-plasma
                          31) kdebase-workspace 32) kdeedu-analitza 33) kdeedu-blinken 34) kdeedu-cantor
                          35) kdeedu-kalgebra 36) kdeedu-kalzium 37) kdeedu-kanagram 38) kdeedu-kbruch
                          39) kdeedu-kgeography 40) kdeedu-khangman 41) kdeedu-kig 42) kdeedu-kiten
                          43) kdeedu-klettres 44) kdeedu-kmplot 45) kdeedu-kstars 46) kdeedu-ktouch
                          47) kdeedu-kturtle 48) kdeedu-kwordquiz 49) kdeedu-marble 50) kdeedu-parley
                          51) kdeedu-rocs 52) kdeedu-step 53) kdegames-bomber 54) kdegames-bovo
                          55) kdegames-granatier 56) kdegames-kajongg 57) kdegames-kapman 58) kdegames-katomic
                          59) kdegames-kbattleship 60) kdegames-kblackbox 61) kdegames-kblocks
                          62) kdegames-kbounce 63) kdegames-kbreakout 64) kdegames-kdiamond
                          65) kdegames-kfourinline 66) kdegames-kgoldrunner 67) kdegames-kigo
                          68) kdegames-killbots 69) kdegames-kiriki 70) kdegames-kjumpingcube
                          71) kdegames-klickety 72) kdegames-klines 73) kdegames-kmahjongg 74) kdegames-kmines
                          75) kdegames-knetwalk 76) kdegames-kolf 77) kdegames-kollision 78) kdegames-konquest
                          79) kdegames-kpatience 80) kdegames-kreversi 81) kdegames-kshisen 82) kdegames-ksirk
                          83) kdegames-kspaceduel 84) kdegames-ksquares 85) kdegames-ksudoku
                          86) kdegames-ktron 87) kdegames-ktuberling 88) kdegames-kubrick 89) kdegames-lskat
                          90) kdegames-palapeli 91) kdegraphics-gwenview 92) kdegraphics-kamera
                          93) kdegraphics-kcolorchooser 94) kdegraphics-kgamma 95) kdegraphics-kolourpaint
                          96) kdegraphics-kruler 97) kdegraphics-ksnapshot 98) kdegraphics-okular
                          99) kdemultimedia-dragonplayer 100) kdemultimedia-ffmpegthumbs 101) kdemultimedia-juk
                          102) kdemultimedia-kioslave 103) kdemultimedia-kmix 104) kdemultimedia-kscd
                          105) kdemultimedia-mplayerthumbs 106) kdenetwork-filesharing 107) kdenetwork-kdnssd
                          108) kdenetwork-kget 109) kdenetwork-kopete 110) kdenetwork-kppp
                          111) kdenetwork-krdc 112) kdenetwork-krfb 113) kdepim-akonadiconsole
                          114) kdepim-akregator 115) kdepim-blogilo 116) kdepim-console
                          117) kdepim-kaddressbook 118) kdepim-kalarm 119) kdepim-kjots 120) kdepim-kleopatra
                          121) kdepim-kmail 122) kdepim-knode 123) kdepim-knotes 124) kdepim-kontact
                          125) kdepim-korganizer 126) kdepim-kresources 127) kdepim-ktimetracker
                          128) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bball 129) kdeplasma-addons-applets-binary-clock
                          130) kdeplasma-addons-applets-blackboard 131) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bookmarks
                          132) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bubblemon 133) kdeplasma-addons-applets-calculator
                          134) kdeplasma-addons-applets-charselect 135) kdeplasma-addons-applets-comic
                          136) kdeplasma-addons-applets-community 137) kdeplasma-addons-applets-dict
                          138) kdeplasma-addons-applets-eyes 139) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fifteenpuzzle
                          140) kdeplasma-addons-applets-filewatcher 141) kdeplasma-addons-applets-frame
                          142) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fuzzy-clock 143) kdeplasma-addons-applets-icontasks
                          144) kdeplasma-addons-applets-incomingmsg 145) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kdeobservatory
                          146) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kimpanel 147) kdeplasma-addons-applets-knowledgebase
                          148) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kolourpicker 149) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konqprofiles
                          150) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konsoleprofiles 151) kdeplasma-addons-applets-lancelot
                          152) kdeplasma-addons-applets-leavenote 153) kdeplasma-addons-applets-life
                          154) kdeplasma-addons-applets-luna 155) kdeplasma-addons-applets-magnifique
                          156) kdeplasma-addons-applets-mediaplayer 157) kdeplasma-addons-applets-microblog
                          158) kdeplasma-addons-applets-news 159) kdeplasma-addons-applets-notes
                          160) kdeplasma-addons-applets-nowplaying 161) kdeplasma-addons-applets-paste
                          162) kdeplasma-addons-applets-pastebin 163) kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard
                          164) kdeplasma-addons-applets-previewer 165) kdeplasma-addons-applets-qalculate
                          166) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rememberthemilk 167) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rssnow
                          168) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdashboard 169) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdesktop
                          170) kdeplasma-addons-applets-social-news 171) kdeplasma-addons-applets-spellcheck
                          172) kdeplasma-addons-applets-systemloadviewer 173) kdeplasma-addons-applets-timer
                          174) kdeplasma-addons-applets-unitconverter 175) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weather
                          176) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weatherstation 177) kdeplasma-addons-applets-webslice
                          178) kdeplasma-addons-containments 179) kdeplasma-addons-runners-audioplayercontrol
                          180) kdeplasma-addons-runners-browserhistory 181) kdeplasma-addons-runners-characters
                          182) kdeplasma-addons-runners-contacts 183) kdeplasma-addons-runners-converter
                          184) kdeplasma-addons-runners-datetime 185) kdeplasma-addons-runners-events
                          186) kdeplasma-addons-runners-katesessions
                          187) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konquerorsessions
                          188) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konsolesessions 189) kdeplasma-addons-runners-kopete
                          190) kdeplasma-addons-runners-mediawiki 191) kdeplasma-addons-runners-spellchecker
                          192) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-mandelbrot 193) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-marble
                          194) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-pattern 195) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-potd
                          196) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-virus 197) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-weather
                          198) kdesdk-cervisia 199) kdesdk-dolphin-plugins 200) kdesdk-kapptemplate
                          201) kdesdk-kate 202) kdesdk-kcachegrind 203) kdesdk-kdeaccounts-plugin
                          204) kdesdk-kdepalettes 205) kdesdk-kioslave 206) kdesdk-kmtrace 207) kdesdk-kompare
                          208) kdesdk-kpartloader 209) kdesdk-kprofilemethod 210) kdesdk-kstartperf
                          211) kdesdk-kuiviewer 212) kdesdk-lokalize 213) kdesdk-okteta 214) kdesdk-poxml
                          215) kdesdk-scripts 216) kdesdk-strigi-analyzer 217) kdesdk-umbrello
                          218) kdetoys-amor 219) kdetoys-kteatime 220) kdetoys-ktux 221) kdeutils-ark
                          222) kdeutils-filelight 223) kdeutils-kcalc 224) kdeutils-kcharselect
                          225) kdeutils-kdf 226) kdeutils-kfloppy 227) kdeutils-kgpg
                          228) kdeutils-kremotecontrol 229) kdeutils-ksecrets 230) kdeutils-ktimer
                          231) kdeutils-kwallet 232) kdeutils-printer-applet 233) kdeutils-superkaramba
                          234) kdeutils-sweeper 235) kdewebdev-kfilereplace 236) kdewebdev-kimagemapeditor
                          237) kdewebdev-klinkstatus 238) kdewebdev-kommander
                          KDE pulls in 240 packages, not including the packages that i already have installed (such as QT4). Now, some of these i can ditch, but it's still quite large. if i was to do the same thing for Gnome - i would see like 50 packages (if even). So yes, KDE is bloated compared to most other DEs, it is feature rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloated. if i had KDE installed, i would be using very few of the features offered by the DE - therefore, i would be running a bloated desktop, because that is exactly what software bloat is - including more and more features that aren't being used. Which is why i ditched KDE the last time i delved in it.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.

                            This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
                            kdebase4-workspace
                            dolphin
                            kwin
                            kdebase4-session
                            kwrite
                            plasmoid-folderview
                            that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P

                            ok, ok, for reference here is the full list of recommended packages to pull with the ones above:
                            avahi
                            pulseaudio
                            MozillaFirefox
                            susehelp
                            desktop-data-openSUSE
                            gdb
                            kwebkitpart
                            droid-fonts
                            xdg-user-dirs
                            plasma-addons
                            kdm
                            polkit-default-privs
                            pulseaudio-utils
                            yast2-control-center-qt
                            skanlite
                            konqueror
                            pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
                            pulseaudio-module-lirc
                            pulseaudio-module-x11
                            pulseaudio-module-zeroconf
                            alsa-plugins-pulse
                            kaddressbook
                            kmail
                            knotes
                            konsole
                            kontact
                            korganizer
                            soprano-backend-redland
                            oxygen-gtk
                            akregator
                            kdepim4-wizards
                            kio_iso
                            plasmoid-networkmanagement
                            plasmoid-quickaccess
                            soprano-backend-virtuoso
                            kcm_gtk
                            kdebase4-nsplugin
                            kdenetwork4-filesharing
                            kdepasswd
                            keditbookmarks
                            kvkbd
                            pinentry-qt4
                            pulseaudio-module-jack
                            synaptiks
                            Still far from even 100, not to mention 240.
                            Last edited by Cyber Killer; 06-18-2012, 10:32 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                              The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.
                              That was there to show how much 'crap' there is in KDE land. Furthermore, yes i posted the output from the kde meta package, that does not mean i would have to install all of that. KDE is broken up in Arch, you can install whatever you like.

                              Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                              This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
                              that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P
                              And those 6 packages still are more resource heavy than any other DE that i've ever used in linux land.

                              EDIT: AHA! now you change your tune - 'sorry i didn't mean 6 - i really mean you need a bunch.' lol...and on closer inspection i get i would find that i actually would need more than you are posting to have a 'good experience'...
                              Last edited by ninez; 06-18-2012, 10:40 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                You should also check how much crap there is in GNOME land. Hint: a comparable amount, as both of these DE's strive for feature completeness so they each have their respective apps for everything that you might want to do. The difference is that the KDE apps use a common set of features, stuff like e.g. the ability to put a URL in the file open dialog and it will get the file from the net and open it.

                                Anyway - why the hate? You don't like large DE's, then it's your choice, be happy with your LXDE.

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