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Ubuntu is NOT a part of community

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Blue Beard View Post
    I think our community should be more worried about the impact of Oracle.

    The EU objected to Oracle's purchase of Sun due to MySQL.

    What is the future of Open Office?
    MySQL is in danger and EU sees it. But I'm not worried about OpenOffice. There are two major players SUN (Oracle) and Novell. Novell complained a long time, that the development of OO go wrong way. Finally they forked OO and released GO-OO. Many major distributions today use Novell fork.

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    • #17
      What can I say, I've yet to report a bug to Ubuntu without some developer checking with and/or offering a patch to upstream. As an end-user, my impression is that Ubuntu developers work pretty closely with upstream.

      Yes, Ubuntu is not a major contributor to the kernel and I honestly don't see what's the big deal with that. Arch, PCLinuxOS or pretty much any distro other than Red Hat / SuSE / Debian isn't a big contributor either, but you don't see people bitching about that.

      Jealousy is the name.

      The fact is that Ubuntu has managed to convert more people from Windows to Linux than any other distro out there. It is usable, polished, fast and easy to get started with. Yes there are better distros out there if you are looking into specific use-cases, but nothing can match Ubuntu on the whole package.

      Maybe you think that's irrelevant or even detrimental to the linux ecosystem. That's your right. It's also short-sighted.

      All I can say is, thank you Ubuntu for bringing the fun back to computing (and I'm saying that after using Windows 3.1-7, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, Fedora, Debian, openSUSE and Arch for sizeable periods of time).

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by dust View Post
        Early adopters bloodied by Ubuntu's Karmic Koala
        Smooth Windows upgrade it ain't
        Yeah, the 9.04 to 9.10 upgrade was pretty bad: downloaded nearly 2GB, took six hours and broke a bunch of stuff in the process.

        However, a clean install was easy and it is generally an improvement over 9.04. I think the big problem is that they're trying to support thousands of applications as well as the OS and inevitably something in the upgrade process is going to break some of them.

        Just as I don't install Windows until after it gets the fiirst service pack, I don't install an Ubuntu upgrade until a month or so after it's been released.

        Back on the original subject, I'm not quite sure what anyone expects of them. A distribution is basically taking other people's software and packaging it together with their changes and any software they develop themselves; I'm not sure why people expect a lot of fixes coming back in the other direction unless the distro has paying customers who are going to fund significant development and support work.

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        • #19
          Blackstar, converting people is a good thing? Really? What about articles like this?
          http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7600/1.html

          Ubuntu has a huge marketshare - and they do NOTHING. Not kernel, not X, not glibc, not gcc, not binutils, perl, kde. They patch gnome heavily and they deconstruct kde with every relase. They don't play nicely. Even gentoo is more eager to get things upstream.- And gentoo is a freaking community distro, without a corporation (Canonical) and some millionair behind it.

          Ubuntu is toxic.

          Why is phoronix so stuck up with ubuntu and fedora? Why? One good reason please.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by energyman View Post
            Blackstar, converting people is a good thing? Really? What about articles like this?
            http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7600/1.html
            That article is utter rubbish. The writer should be emarassed for posting this - what's his argument, that there's a list of known errata? Check any large software: Apache, Mesa, Xorg, Windows, Mac OS X and be enlightened.

            That the upgrade experience was bad? Try upgrading openSUSE or Fedora sometime, it's fun. Windows is even worse and Mac OS X takes the cake (wiping out your entire user account as part of the upgrade process is, how shall I put this, priceless).

            Ubuntu upgrades are a breeze in comparison.

            Ubuntu has a huge marketshare - and they do NOTHING. Not kernel, not X, not glibc, not gcc, not binutils, perl, kde.
            A distributor's job is to package software, configure it, test it and make sure that it works for the user. It is *not* his job to develop the software in the first place.

            They patch gnome heavily
            and promote the patches upstream

            and they deconstruct kde with every relase.
            as does Fedora and openSUSE.

            They don't play nicely.
            They have responded and fixed every single bug I have reported and all relevant patches were forwarded upstream.

            Even gentoo is more eager to get things upstream.
            I thought Gentoo followed the "don't patch" philosophy, like Arch?

            And gentoo is a freaking community distro, without a corporation (Canonical) and some millionair behind it.
            Who doesn't actually make any money out of this endeavor, unlike Red Hat or Novel.

            Ubuntu is toxic.
            Yet it has raised awareness and made the OS accessible as no other distro before. If that's toxic, I'll have another one please.

            Why is phoronix so stuck up with ubuntu and fedora? Why? One good reason please.
            Because these are the distros that actually matter. What would you have, Gentoo? Let me laugh. OpenSUSE? That's a badly-designed, bloated Ubuntu wannabee. Debian? Ubuntu overshadows it in all regards.

            What else should phoronix use, really?

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            • #21
              Well I agree with BlackStar.

              Ubuntu constribute with a lot of users. Really.. Before Ubuntu not many knew about gnu/linux. But that has changed dramatically the last 5 years (because of Ubuntu).
              Almost everyone today knows what linux or Ubuntu is, because Ubuntu get a lot of press coverage where I live.

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              • #22
                Ubuntu is hype and nothing else. Userfriendly debian based? Had been done before, many times. Ubuntu had just better PR. That is all. And the article is not rubbish. Ubuntu is more broken with every release and several of the known bugs are idiotic showstoppers.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by energyman View Post
                  And the article is not rubbish.
                  No, but I'd say it's overhyping the problems. In particular, the list of bugs leaves out the 'may' and 'on specific platforms' provisos on a some, making them seem much worse than they are.

                  Ubuntu is more broken with every release
                  I'm not convinced. Some things get broken every release and some other things get fixed and a lot of features get added. While I'd rather they not break anything, it's hard to make significant OS changes with thousands of applications and not break a few.

                  Fixing my system took a few hours over the weekend, but the only remaining major reproducible issues are the lack of autologin support (presumably a GDM issue) and the unreliable wireless on my netbook (presumably a kernel driver issue).

                  and several of the known bugs are idiotic showstoppers.
                  I don't see any 'showstoppers' there myself.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post

                    and promote the patches upstream as does Fedora and openSUSE.
                    Funny I never heard about just one upstream developer satisfied with ubuntu feedback. Where have all the feedback gone...? :-D

                    I thought Gentoo followed the "don't patch" philosophy, like Arch?
                    Maybe you should see the statistics.

                    Who doesn't actually make any money out of this endeavor, unlike Red Hat or Novel.
                    Who claim himself the best community distro so loudly? You can not be the community leader with strategy based on parasitism. Bigger market share brings bigger responsibility. That's how it works.

                    OpenSUSE? That's a badly-designed, bloated Ubuntu wannabee.
                    That Opensuse you hate so much, has much stonger functional community, not that funny Ubuntu circus based on drove of Shuttleworth sheep. Many important decisions in Opensuse are made by community. important decisions in ubuntu are made by Shuttleworth.

                    That Opensuse you hate so much brought Build-service for everyone. This is a killer feature, and huge step toward global community, not the opensuse one.

                    That Opensuse you hate so much have many upstream developers.

                    Hogwash about bloated distro is just your personal opinion. Nothing more.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by movieman View Post
                      I'm not convinced. Some things get broken every release and some other things get fixed and a lot of features get added. While I'd rather they not break anything, it's hard to make significant OS changes with thousands of applications and not break a few.

                      Fixing my system took a few hours over the weekend, but the only remaining major reproducible issues are the lack of autologin support (presumably a GDM issue) and the unreliable wireless on my netbook (presumably a kernel driver issue).

                      I don't see any 'showstoppers' there myself.
                      Pretty similar experience, myself. I've updated 3 PCs and 2 laptops since the release of 9.10 and the worst thing that happened was a non-working touchpad on one laptop (fixed by doing the default dist-upgrade). Everything else went smoothly - in fact, one of my PCs has been upgraded continuously from 7.04 to 9.10 without issues.

                      Just to put things into perspective, one recent Vista -> Win7 upgrade process managed to actually brick one of the two aforementioned laptops. I had to open the chasis and remove the CMOS battery before it would boot again. Confidence inspiring, ain't it? My OpenSUSE and Fedora VMs have never *ever* managed upgrade themselves without going FUBAR in the process.

                      So much for your list of "showstopping bugs" in Ubuntu.

                      Then again, many users are bitter in light of Ubuntu's success, so they tend to blow out of proportion whatever problems they read about (because obviously they don't have any first-hand experience with the distro - the first mark of a good troll).

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                      • #26
                        Here's my 2 cents.

                        Ubuntu doesn't stay close to upstream because it's not possible when they apply so many ****ing patches that actually *break* the software.

                        Eg. http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pa-in-ubuntu.html

                        Vanilla Distros like Arch and Gentoo do report bugs and send fixes to upstream. They don't just patch them away.

                        Novell employs people just to work on KDE, gnome, the kernel, X.org, openoffice/go-oo (btw many fixes from go-oo make their way to sun's openoffice eventually), and various other projects.
                        Redhat does the same.

                        Smaller (community) distro's can't hire anyone, which is why they can't contribute as much.

                        Ubuntu just hires people to work on launchpad, ubuntu, unr, and ubuntu one (which is proprietary).

                        Why does having more users matter exactly? What will it bring? It won't bring more devs, they would find out about linux anyway.

                        I have found archlinux to be more stable than any other linux distro because they don't have fancy tools or patches that break things. Everything is setup the way it's supposed to be, the way that's easier for the software, not the user. Users should be willing to learn something. For me, updating is just 'pacman -Syu' daily. No releases, no delay of waiting for a new release.

                        /rant

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                        • #27
                          Good that you mention Arch, cause Arch Linux has the biggest and best community of all Linux distribution. Arch Linux is actually driven by comunity (AUR project), Ubuntu has big number of "users" but those users come and go, but it isn't constant userbase.

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                          • #28
                            Linux distributions are not football teams although there seems to be a lot of "football supporters" around them. They have different reasons to exist and have been started with different goals, and they function in different ways.

                            One thing is that one distro's success does not mean it hurts another distro. They are not fighting between themselves for a limited set of resources. They will all gain on increased acceptance of Linux in general and together take "market share" from MS and Apple. Of course some distros will die because they have no advantages over others.

                            Some people here talk about the great "market share" of Ubuntu. Remember that the distro is given away for free, so it's not like they are earning money directly by this "market share". I would guess RedHat and Suse have more paying customers. I don't think Canonical has earned a lot of money so far. And it was funded out of the pockets of one man. Should we deny him spending his money the way he chose to? Should he had donated his money to kernel hackers, or given it to the poor, instead of building a new distro that worked the way he wanted? I also think as soon as Canonical starts to get off the ground economically more resources will be spent on upstream development.

                            Now let's come back to goals. I think many people behind Ubuntu (community and corporate owners) are genuinely interested in making as much people as possible able to use free software, and to avoid the monopolies of proprietary software. This could mean cutting some corners on the way, like allowing proprietary hardware drivers until free ones have caught up, or focusing resources on making it a polished product instead of making new upstream features.

                            "Why does having more users matter exactly?" - this guy does not really share the vision of having more people using free software

                            Personally I don't think it is important that everybody uses free software, or that they use one distribution or another. But to preserve/create the freedom to choose your own tools in the modern information society, a certain "market share" for free software is necessary. And to gain that share, don't come running with gentoo or slackware, or GNU/Hurd for that matter. I wonder if I could have used for instance my internet banking with a free browser today if it wasn't for a couple of Mozilla developers putting the foot down and focusing on a polished end-user product like Firefox. And I have had to use not-so-free java licenses on the way but not any more, and I hope the flashplayer issue will go the same way.

                            Finally, just some points for those who did not know:

                            Fedora is an experimental community distro, not meant for "normal" end-users. So it does not "compete" with Ubuntu. Fedora serves as a test bed for the commercial distro RHEL from Redhat. RHEL is a business competitor to Ubuntu's LTS releases (with its support offers from Canonical).

                            Greg HK which some people refer to, is from SUSE, also a commercial competitor to RedHat's and Canonical's support service, and part of the big corporation Novell. It is part of his company loyalty to make SUSE sound better than other companies, and probably in his company culture to add a little poison to his expressions.

                            /me sorry for getting troll-baited and writing such a long article that no one will read in the most useless thread ever.
                            Last edited by tormod; 11-30-2009, 05:50 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tormod View Post
                              "Why does having more users matter exactly?" - this guy does not really share the vision of having more people using free software
                              Yeah, I don't.
                              If people want to use it let them use it, but this whole 'we need more users' is basically turning free software into a religion.

                              I'm not talking about different roles, I understand that Ubuntu is aimed at a different audience, but they don't give back much to anything except themselves.

                              It's difficult to argue with trolls without exaggerating a bit

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by some-guy View Post
                                Yeah, I don't.
                                If people want to use it let them use it, but this whole 'we need more users' is basically turning free software into a religion.
                                It's not a religion, it is a war strategy It's more "we want to let more users be able to choose Linux", and what I also hoped the Firefox parallel would illustrate is that if only a small group of users use Linux, the rest of the world will not care about interoperability and Joe the user will need a Windows machine to do "normal" user activities, like internet banking or watching Youtube.

                                Of course there are many "classic" Linux users who do not care about this and what other users do, as long as they can read slashdot in lynx and listen to their self-recorded .ogg files.

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