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  • I know what I am talking about. What does ubuntu do and for which community?
    Ubunutu only cares about Ubuntu. Nothing else. Redhat, Novell, Mandriva - they are PAYING UPSTREAM DEVS. Without them X, kernel, KDE/gnome would be in a very sorry state. So would be gcc.

    Ubuntu? They take, they don't give back. Just because a patch can be found somewhere means nothing. You have to TELL upstream that there is something that might be interresting. Even better SEND it upstream. Ubuntu does neither. You can not expect that upstream devs scan ubuntu's servers for some patches.

    In short, they do nothing, except creating 'howtos' for ubuntards with shoddy quality and bad advise.
    Ubuntu leeches from everybody else and give back idiots spouting crap and howtos nobody should use.

    Oh and that:
    >They also focus on the various pieces that glue together a distro to try and make the user experience more pleasant.

    is just marketing bullshit. Every distro does that. Ever did. And before there was ubuntu there was already Mandriva/mandrake, Mepis, Xandros, Lindows.

    The difference? Less marketing dollar. And better behaviour.

    the evidence is out there:
    Ubuntu takes and gives nothing back.
    the 'community' lives from people giving back.

    ubuntu hurts the 'communty'.

    Greg has shown the evidence. The net is full with more.

    Just have a look at ubuntard.com.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by energyman View Post
      I know what I am talking about. What does ubuntu do and for which community?
      Ubunutu only cares about Ubuntu. Nothing else. Redhat, Novell, Mandriva - they are PAYING UPSTREAM DEVS. Without them X, kernel, KDE/gnome would be in a very sorry state. So would be gcc.
      Well how do you explain patches in upstream projects provided by Canonical devs?


      Originally posted by energyman View Post
      Ubuntu? They take, they don't give back. Just because a patch can be found somewhere means nothing. You have to TELL upstream that there is something that might be interresting. Even better SEND it upstream. Ubuntu does neither. You can not expect that upstream devs scan ubuntu's servers for some patches.
      But there is a path for Ubuntu patches to go upstream.

      Originally posted by energyman View Post
      In short, they do nothing, except creating 'howtos' for ubuntards with shoddy quality and bad advise.
      Ubuntu leeches from everybody else and give back idiots spouting crap and howtos nobody should use.
      More hate, suggesting that you know yourself that you have no factual basis for your claims, and therefore must resort to flamage.

      Originally posted by energyman View Post
      Oh and that:
      >They also focus on the various pieces that glue together a distro to try and make the user experience more pleasant.

      is just marketing bullshit. Every distro does that. Ever did. And before there was ubuntu there was already Mandriva/mandrake, Mepis, Xandros, Lindows.
      Of course all distros do that. But if you're as knowledgeable as you claim, I would've thought you'd be aware of where the differences in quality are in relation to the integration efforts of the various distros.

      Originally posted by energyman View Post
      The difference? Less marketing dollar. And better behaviour.

      the evidence is out there:
      Ubuntu takes and gives nothing back.
      the 'community' lives from people giving back.

      ubuntu hurts the 'communty'.

      Greg has shown the evidence. The net is full with more.

      Just have a look at ubuntard.com.
      Hmm, ubuntard.com Looks like they're aiming to fill a similar role to http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • as Greg has shown, there aren't mny patches.

        Comment


        • http://xkcd.com/619/

          Comment


          • Originally posted by squirrl View Post
            It's so increadibly idiotic. Go to adobe.com and complain there.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by energyman View Post
              as Greg has shown, there aren't mny patches.
              And now...... a questionnaire


              How do you feel about Greg's assertion that any patches to KDE or Gnome by Canonical employees shouldn't be considered relevant because KDE and Gnome aren't part of the Linux ecosystem?

              Do you think it's relevant to consider the amount of years IBM, RedHat, Novell and Canonical have been in business?

              Do you think that the amount of employees IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical have may be relevant?

              Do feel the revenues of IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical are relevant in this discussion?

              Do you think that Mark Shuttleworths' desire to fix the parts of the Linux ecosystem that no-ones working on is worthy of investing time?

              And if not, should they drop what they currently do in this area, and instead, strictly work only on projects that others are also working on?

              Do you feel that the current userbase of Ubuntu is a reflection of the work that the Ubuntu team have done, or, more worryingly, the result of an secret and underhanded, underground conspiracy that threatens the whole world as we know it.

              Comment


              • I think ubuntu's PPA system is a nice way to dump software on a large community of ignorant enthusiasts. It has the potential to get feedback from less technically-apt users, but unfortunately most of the user support happens in the horrible Ubuntu forums. Sometimes it can go badly when the packaging is handled by the Ubuntu team though, their rollout of PulseAudio was a disaster and left gave many end-users a bad impression.

                It doesn't really matter if Cannonical contributes patches to Xorg or the Kernel, Ubuntu is a great to get feedback from users who don't know how their software functions.
                Last edited by peepingtom; 12-06-2009, 01:35 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                  And now...... a questionnaire

                  How do you feel about Greg's assertion that any patches to KDE or Gnome by Canonical employees shouldn't be considered relevant because KDE and Gnome aren't part of the Linux ecosystem?
                  Ok. Lets begin from the start. Greg is kernel developer. Maybe you know, kernel has nothing to do with KDE/GNOME. As a kernel developer, he usually speak about kernel and thing around it. And here it comes....

                  During one of his speech, Greg was asked how many patches they (kernel devs) received from Canonical. Completely unprepared, with no intent in mind, Greg answered they contributed 5-6 patches. With 0.1% of patches, Canonical is nothing for kernel development, nobody care a cuss whether it is 5 or 100 patches. It's nothing in fact.

                  But then this answer was criticized by somebody from Canonical. This petty difference (5 or 100) was a reason for canonical to defend themselves and tax kernel developer with such stupid divergence?

                  They started that, they got, what they deserved.


                  Do you think it's relevant to consider the amount of years IBM, RedHat, Novell and Canonical have been in business?

                  Do you think that the amount of employees IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical have may be relevant?

                  Do feel the revenues of IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical are relevant in this discussion?
                  No. Why? Nobody counts who gives more or less. It sould be noticed Canonical gives almost nothing.

                  How many employees has Mandriva? Or Debian or Gentoo? Oh Yeah, Gentoo is far bigger company than Canonical.... ROFL

                  Try to compare Canonical with Gentoo you demagogue!

                  Do you think that Mark Shuttleworths' desire to fix the parts of the Linux ecosystem that no-ones working on is worthy of investing time?

                  And if not, should they drop what they currently do in this area, and instead, strictly work only on projects that others are also working on?
                  What are those parts, nobody (except god blessing Shuttleworth) work on them? Give us some examples!

                  Comment


                  • bringing up KDE/Gnome contributions without backing up the numbers is a false thing - I doubt Canonical contributes much to gnome or KDE.

                    As for places where contributions and manpower would help - the X system, drivers etc, there is where more manpower will be helpful.

                    Instead Canonical have only one employee working on the whole subsystem who has no time to contribute upstream and is drowning in bugs - mostly caused by the proprietary driver. (And yes - even Ubuntu is suffering from this as as such the plans are to have older versions of software in the next LTS release.)

                    There is a reason Canonical want to have synchronised release cycles with other distros - it allows them to offer similar levels of support (maybe a little behind and a little slow) without doing the hard work.

                    It is still a good distro, and if it works for you, use it. Just don't be under the assumption that it plays nice with upstream anywhere.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bugmenot View Post
                      There is a reason Canonical want to have synchronised release cycles with other distros - it allows them to offer similar levels of support (maybe a little behind and a little slow) without doing the hard work.
                      Yes. This is one of the most devious things Shuttleworth proposed. Ubuntu, fatally depending on Debian, Fedora and SUSE would have even less work then.

                      Comment


                      • Interesting thread. On the one hand, ubuntu has been successful in broadening linux adoption (good for linux), but on the other if ubuntu doesn't give much back, they've really no right to suggest any changes to anything.
                        That being said, I don't use ubuntu and the above statements are based entirely off reading parts of this thread.

                        Comment


                        • If the assertion is that Ubuntu is only popular due to buzz or marketing hype, then doesn't it reason that any distribution interested in growing user base would take a page out of the Ubuntu book?

                          I will state my personal experience that Ubuntu works out of the box with no tweaking, and pretty much has since I started using it. I installed Arch on a eee netbook with Gnome, I think 2.28, and there was a Synaptics touchpad issue where the point I touched on the pad moved the mouse to that relative spot on the screen, very annoying. Never saw such a bug putting Ubuntu on after that. The point is that the fact that Arch is good to the community didn't help me enjoy a good out of the box experience and with Ubuntu I did.

                          I challenge other distros to provide the same out of the box experience and I will probably switch and recommend others I have using Ubuntu now to also switch.

                          Comment


                          • I can mainly speak for my own (currently Debian lenny based) distribution, but until you use Intel series 4 gfx (which is slow even with a correct driver) or GMA 500 it is certainly possible to use it on most available hardware. Problematic are old CRT displays which tend to "forget" to send correct EDID info to the xserver and therefore the screen res is not good by default and also the refreshrate.

                            New things like hal rules (those famous fdi files) to autoconfigure the Xserver for input devices are certainly interesting and can increase the out of the box experience. In case it does not detect a synaptics pad it is configured to use evdev which leads to unexpected behaviour. Some would just ignore that as using a mouse together with a laptop is more common than you might think - at least for the bigger ones...

                            Comment


                            • And now...... a questionnaire

                              How do you feel about Greg's assertion that any patches to KDE or Gnome by Canonical employees shouldn't be considered relevant because KDE and Gnome aren't part of the Linux ecosystem?

                              Originally posted by next9 View Post
                              Ok. Lets begin from the start. Greg is kernel developer. Maybe you know, kernel has nothing to do with KDE/GNOME. As a kernel developer, he usually speak about kernel and thing around it. And here it comes....

                              During one of his speech, Greg was asked how many patches they (kernel devs) received from Canonical. Completely unprepared, with no intent in mind, Greg answered they contributed 5-6 patches. With 0.1% of patches, Canonical is nothing for kernel development, nobody care a cuss whether it is 5 or 100 patches. It's nothing in fact.

                              But then this answer was criticized by somebody from Canonical. This petty difference (5 or 100) was a reason for canonical to defend themselves and tax kernel developer with such stupid divergence?

                              They started that, they got, what they deserved.

                              I believe Gregs' original error was due to only counting commits by people with @canonical.com addresses and leaving out the @ubuntu.com ones. But no matter why the miscount, I'd say there there's a significant difference between 6 and 100. It's interesting that you bring up that particular angle by the way. I'd say that the error in accounting he made was a significant factor in him using the Linux Plumbers Conference the way he did. I think that he wanted to frame this correction to his error in a way that wouldn't result in him loosing face and so he wrote this talk to with that in mind. It might be the reason why he would make that kind of a speech at that particular venue. He certainly has the right to voice any concerns he may have on any subject he wishes to discuss, and I would've thought he'd have ample opportunity to do so at a more appropriate venue, but his use of the keynote to make these particular points I find interesting indeed. But this is of course only my opinion.

                              The original question I asked though about whether KDE or Gnome patches are relevant is to try and understand why you insist that they do nothing for the greater community. And as they are more active in the upper layers of the software stack, I thought that it might explain your position better if you don't consider what they do elsewhere to be relevant in the Linux ecosystem.

                              Do you think it's relevant to consider the amount of years IBM, RedHat, Novell and Canonical have been in business?

                              Do you think that the amount of employees IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical have may be relevant?

                              Do feel the revenues of IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical are relevant in this discussion?

                              Originally posted by next9 View Post
                              No. Why? Nobody counts who gives more or less. It sould be noticed Canonical gives almost nothing.

                              You feel that the amount of time they've had to use both the amount of money they have, and the amount of people they have, to contribute to the community is irrelevant. How can this be so? Common sense would seem to suggest that the amount of time and money anyone has will impact on what is possible for them.


                              I only have figures for 2007 easily at hand, but; (I've no financial figures for Canonical 2007)

                              Code:
                              Worldwide Employees
                              Cannonical  approx 140
                              RedHat	    approx 2200
                              Novell      approx 4100
                              IBM         approx 386,558
                              
                              Revenue
                              Canonical's annual revenue is creeping towards $30 Million (2009)
                              RedHat $523 Million (2007)
                              Novell $993 Million (2007)
                              IBM    $98,786 Million (2007)
                              
                              
                              Years in existance
                              Canonical (founded in 2004) (5 years)
                              RedHat    (founded in 1993) (16 years)
                              Novell    (founded in 1979) (30 years)
                              IBM       (founded in 1889) (120 years)

                              Originally posted by next9 View Post
                              How many employees has Mandriva? Or Debian or Gentoo? Oh Yeah, Gentoo is far bigger company than Canonical.... ROFL

                              Try to compare Canonical with Gentoo you demagogue!
                              I believe Gentoo 1.0 was release around 2002 and have read reports that it has between 200 and 500 employees. So, Gentoo has at least as many employees as Canonical, and likely many more. If they do have many more employees does this explain why Gentoo has more kernel commits, or it it because Ubuntu focus too much on other places?

                              Oh, and more insults. A lovely demonstration of you winning style.

                              Originally posted by next9 View Post
                              What are those parts, nobody (except god blessing Shuttleworth) work on them? Give us some examples!
                              A few examples, although these will likely be dismissed by some as meaningless. Some of these projects are to be plugged in as replacements for projects with similar functionality in order to provide a better experience than what exists there today. Hopefully they demonstrate that Ubuntu are trying to round out the Linux experience. If you want to supplant Windows and OS/X as the desktops of choice and fix bug #1, smoothness and quality of user experience is needed.

                              FUSA Applet
                              user switching, presence and session termination
                              New FUSA applet allows you to mange your presence setting, as well as switch to a guest or other user, and logout


                              Project Ayatana
                              Indicator plasmoid for KDE Desktop

                              Libindicate
                              A small library for applications to raise "flags" on DBus for other components of the desktop to pick up and visualize. Currently used by the messaging indicator.

                              Notify OSD
                              Canonical's on-screen-display notification agent, implementing the freedesktop.org Desktop Notifications Specification with semi-transparent click-through bubbles.


                              Apport
                              Debugging program crashes without any automated tools has been pretty time consuming and hard for both developers and users........

                              This is now also used by OpenSuse, Fedora is goin to move away from Apport to something they will develop themselves to carry out this functionality.


                              usplash
                              xsplash - A development requirement for their desire for 10 seconds boot.



                              Ubuntu Software Center. - Will eventually provide an avenue for third party commercial apps to be purchased and installed. As we've seem in the Andriod Market Place, even small payments for programs inspires developers to produce more software (programmers have to eat too!)



                              Canonical to fund upstream Linux usability improvements
                              Ubuntu provides access to its usability experts so that projects can get professional usability information on their software to help move the ease of use forward in their projects.

                              Canonical carry the financial burden of this.



                              This is in no means an exhaustive list, but I've got to leave some work for others to do

                              Comment


                              • @mugginz

                                I don't think he counted so wrong as ppl in question got a mail to clearify which company they belogng too. Even i got a mail with maybe a handful of 1-2 liner patches which are in the kernel now. I really think he wants to do that as accurate as possible.

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