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  • Originally posted by next9 View Post
    I dont see any sense instaling Linux onto NTFS partition and HDD image. Installer automatically resize HDD partitions and create space for Linux. the difference is almost none.

    And again. I don't know about Mandriva, but it is possible to install Opensuse from Windows environment using standard installation DVD.

    So. Your previous post is nothing more than Ubuntu propaganda again. Windows based installer is not ubuntu exclusive. Kid

    Maybe one day Canonical invent the weel, and you come here and tell me, that wheel is ubuntu exclusive
    Your posts in relation to this particular matter clearly demonstrate that you have never held a professional position in the IT industry helping end users with their computing needs.

    Either that, or you are very blinkered in you approach to people.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by yotambien View Post
      (*) As a side comment, after 3-4 days taking him by the hand and walking him through the basics of package management, I had to leave it clear that I wasn't his personal IT guy. Afterwards he handled it reasonably well. He is my living example of Skype not working due to PA, but he managed to fix it after I gave him a couple of links. The only thing I found I couldn't fix for him through a GUI was changing the boot menu in GRUB. The rest were problems not specific to Ubuntu but to Linux, like not having drivers for his scanner/printer.
      Yes, Skype has had it's issues with PusleAudio. As a person who uses bluetooth headsets on various Linux systems running Skype, I can tell you that PulseAudio has been a godsend. Especially the latest versions. The ability to switch a call from main speaker and mike to a bluetooth headset and not have it crash, crackle or crumble is just fantastic, and demonstrates one of those new Pulse features some talk of.

      Also, the current version of Skype seems to work better with Pulse than without... Go figure

      But, this is not to minimise you're own personal experience, for if there is one thing in the Linux community I can't stand it's the "well it works for me buddy" dismissive attitude of some.

      Also, there is a GRUB GUI for changing boot order, etc available, but yes, it does need to be installed via the package manager. It's funny, just the other day me and a friend were discussing just that very issue of modifying boot order, and how Ubuntu should have it installed by default.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by gordboy View Post
        First of all, I would like to thank you for actually making some decent points. A lot of this thread seems to be irrelevant wankery from people who haven't even made it to the (for them) dizzying heights of ineptitude.

        On the point of Ubuntu PPAs being Mickey-Mouse, they have no signing keys, and there is no single bug reporting or bug tracking process. The "if you don't like my repo, then fsck off and don't use it" mentality is laughable elitism, from people who clearly are new to the software development game.
        Yes a lot of PPA's don't have keys, and when someone finally uses that vector to start infecting end users, Canonical would likely be VERY red faced about this. This hopefully will be recified before compromise, not after.

        There are some non-standard repos with keys though, so thankfully this isn't universal.

        Also, as anyone is able to offer third party software, I guess you'll get a broad spectrum of devs building them so you may come across bad attitudes from time to time (but thankfully I haven't come across them yet in the Launchpad hosted ones.)

        Also, usually PPA's are used to stage pre-distro software for testing by the more experienced users out there. Thankfully as software becomes more robust, proven and useful, it winds up in the distro popper, and eventually negates the need for users to utilise them for particular packages.

        Originally posted by gordboy View Post
        Mark S. said he was looking for new blood, and clearly he got some, if somewhat anaemic and even potentially life-threatening ... I believe that it was a daring gesture, but with the benefit of hindsight, a complete disaster. If you hire muppets, you get a second-rate children's TV show.
        Interesting. He has been hiring, but I'm not sure of the negative outcomes of this yet. Have his new hires been steering people wrong? Ripping him off? Breaking their products? Would be interesting to hear.



        EDIT:

        After looking through a few PPA's it would seem they are indeed protected with signing keys.


        2nd EDIT:

        Is anyone able to find any Launchpad hosted PPA's without digital signatures?
        Last edited by mugginz; 12-04-2009, 12:54 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mugginz View Post
          Your posts in relation to this particular matter clearly demonstrate that you have never held a professional position in the IT industry helping end users with their computing needs.

          Either that, or you are very blinkered in you approach to people.
          What a strange coincidence my sister and her boyfriend asked me to help with their Ubuntu Laptops. Both of them use Ubuntu, because somebody told them it is easy of use, because medial madness around it claims every day - it is best distro for BFU. I had no influence on their distro decision and I don't care. It's up to them.

          But due to the many things said in this thread, I would like to point out, that every problem with their ubuntu is solved by me remotely. No miracle here. Ubuntu lacks any acceptable GUI tools and it is impossible for BFU to manage that system. So we have 2 ubuntu users to our statistics, but they could have any distro, because they don't find Ubuntu easy. Maybe with Mandriva, it will be easyier for them to manage system independently, but Mandriva is not COOL HYPER SUPER MEGA distro.

          Thas't my point.


          This thread evolved a little bit ugly, because some people came here with Ubuntu propaganda. Arguments like Ubuntu has AAA, BBB, CCC exclusively and that's why it is best for BFU are unacceptable FUD, when AAA, BBB, CCC features are widely spread across the distributions. It's same absurd declaration like:
          Ford is the best car in the world, because it has the wheels.
          Last edited by next9; 12-04-2009, 03:05 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by next9 View Post
            What a strange coincidence my sister and her boyfriend asked me to help with their Ubuntu Laptops. Both of them use Ubuntu, because somebody told them it is easy of use, because medial madness around it claims every day - it is best distro for BFU. I had no influence on their distro decision and I don't care. It's up to them.

            But due to the many things said in this thread, I would like to point out, that every problem with their ubuntu is solved by me remotely. No miracle here. Ubuntu lacks any acceptable GUI tools and it is impossible for BFU to manage that system. So we have 2 ubuntu users to our statistics, but they could have any distro, because they don't find Ubuntu easy. Maybe with Mandriva, it will be easyier for them to manage system independently, but Mandriva is not COOL HYPER SUPER MEGA distro.

            Thas't my point.


            This thread evolved a little bit ugly, because some people came here with Ubuntu propaganda. Arguments like Ubuntu has AAA, BBB, CCC exclusively and that's why it is best for BFU are unacceptable FUD, when AAA, BBB, CCC features are widely spread across the distributions. It's same absurd declaration like:
            Ford is the best car in the world, because it has the wheels.
            So let me get this straight. You Claim:
            • That Ubuntu only take, and give nothing back.
            • When buying support from Canonical, none of the money provides a benefit to the upstream projects.
            • No upstream developers, not even one single one, is happy with Ubuntu feedback.
            • Ubuntu is a circus based on drove of Shuttleworth sheep
            • You claim Ubuntu doesn't have the largest base of users,
            • No Ubuntu patches go upstream
            • That Canonical sponsored code is only usable in Ubuntu
            • That Canonical has paid for devs to be used by Google,
            • Then claim that Canonical only provide code when it's paid for by others.
            • Packages in Ubutnu's PPA's are unfindable,
            • That you have tries evey version since 5.04 and in your opinion it "strongly sucks",
            • ubuntu is not so free,
            • You "Forgot to mention non-compatible combination of kernel and intel xorg drivers they uselessly included into last ubuntu version,"
            • You suggest both OpenSuse and Mandriva live CD's are easier for a novice user,
            • You claim that Ubuntu's support for closed codecs is lacking when compared to other distros,
            • Canonical is a European company and therefore isn't exposed to the same kind of legal troubles as say Novell is,
            • You see no value in the Ubuntu Wubi installer for novice users,
            • "Ubuntu lacks any acceptable GUI tools and it is impossible for BFU to manage that system"

            But I see no genuine basis for any of this, and when you are called out on it, you simply respond with insults and more baseless claims.

            Whan asked to tell us how Ubuntu uniquely fails miserably by the general levels of quality that are set by the whole Linux landscape you don't seem to have any valid points to make.

            Let me state for the third or fourth time. Ubuntu is not perfect. Neither is Fedora, OpenSuse, Debian, Mandriva, etc, etc. There currently is no perfect distro available.

            When you put forward your position that you don't understand why so many people consider Ubuntu to best the best choice from the choices that are available, people try to explain why this might be so. You then simply respond with mostly rubbish.

            If you wish to criticise a particular weakness in Ubuntu it is usually considered fair to also acknowledge other distros that would have that same weakness. And by extension, when I point out where I see Ubuntu has a good point, and someone points out another distro that also contains that attribute, I will be happy to acknowledge that as well.


            If you have a FAIR and CORRECT point to make, it will be hard to criticise that point, but if you are going to be unfair, then many will find it easy to point this out.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mugginz View Post
              So let me get this straight. You Claim:
              * That Ubuntu only take, and give nothing back.
              YES.

              * When buying support from Canonical, none of the money provides a benefit to the upstream projects.
              YES. Almost. (I know they have 0.1% patches in kernel etc...)

              * No upstream developers, not even one single one, is happy with Ubuntu feedback.
              A little bit different.. I haven't seen any upstream developer satisfied with Ubuntu feedback. I have seen so many have not been satisfied.

              * Ubuntu is a circus based on drove of Shuttleworth sheep.
              YES. (this was reaction on ubuntu free-ness and powerful community). Let have a look, how ubuntu project vote. Shuttleworth pre-select, and community can vote 5 of 8 person (or something like that). What important decissions were made by ubuntu community? Almost none. Shuttleworth rules.

              * You claim Ubuntu doesn't have the largest base of users
              NO. I claim, that user-base can not be measured, because Linux is decentralized ecosystem. I claim, it is really funny, that the only distro have ever declared itself to be the most used was ubuntu! Nobody did it so loudly before ubuntu, and nobody does it today. Nobody except Ubuntu has need to do so. It is funny to see efforts of Ubuntu idiots claim Ubuntu best instead of doing some work. So much energy wasted uselessly on marketing instead of helping community.

              * No Ubuntu patches go upstream
              YES. According to many upstream developers. i am not upstream developer.

              * That Canonical sponsored code is only usable in Ubuntu.
              NO. They have some patches accepted, so this claim can not be truth. I say that most visible Ubuntu "projects" are accepted mainly by Ubuntu only or created to support Ubuntu ecosystem. Not Linux ecosystem.

              * That Canonical has paid for devs to be used by Google,
              YES. And I was wrong here. My informations were imperfect.

              * Then claim that Canonical only provide code when it's paid for by others.

              IRONY connected to previous point.

              * Packages in Ubutnu's PPA's are unfindable,
              NO. But Almost unfindable. Every time I tried it was horror for me, to find package I want. Searching portal is very ugly designed.

              * That you have tries evey version since 5.04 and in your opinion it "strongly sucks",

              YES. Completely.

              * ubuntu is not so free.

              YES (this was reaction). Blackstar claimed that SUSE is not free. I proved that Ubuntu is LESS free than SUSE.

              * You "Forgot to mention non-compatible combination of kernel and intel xorg drivers they uselessly included into last ubuntu version,"

              YES.

              * You suggest both OpenSuse and Mandriva live CD's are easier for a novice user.
              NO. I told Blackstar, that live CD installer with options to install from Windows environment is not Ubuntu exclusive. So this can't be example, what Ubuntu does better for BFU.

              *You claim that Ubuntu's support for closed codecs is lacking when compared to other distros,

              NO. I claim that Ubuntu support is NOT BETTER compared to other distros. Some ultimedia are easier in Ubuntu, some multimedie are easier somewhere else. I don't see problem in any distro and I can't accept claim that Ubuntu is best in this task because this is obviously not true. In the end, adding all common multimedia support to Ubuntu is even a little bit harder because of adding medibuntu repository to apt sources. Thats not problem for me, but Blackstar claims, that Ubuntu has best multimedia support for BFU are just lies.

              * Canonical is a European company and therefore isn't exposed to the same kind of legal troubles as say Novell is.
              YES. Everybody who thinks, ubuntu is so genius they invented how to add mp3 support automatically, is idiot. This is such a stupid task, everybody can realize. But. No official mp3 support in Novell (and Red Hat too) stuff is company politics, many times officially claimed. It is precaution preventing SW patent attack. This kind of attack can be done only in US, nowhere else.

              * You see no value in the Ubuntu Wubi installer for novice users,

              YES. I don't see any Windows with easy installers but everybody use them, install them, etc. Let's try to install Windows onto you Linux machine, and you will se. Corrupted file systems, destroyed bootloader, etc... everything is possible. Still, most of the people use Windows. Because people are not complete idiots.

              Do you want to test Linux? Run it in the virtual machine. Do you want to test it more? Install it on your drive. It is easier for BFU to install common Linux distro than Install Windows. Most of the Windows users does not even know how to Install Windows. And you tell me that these users should have the possibility to install Ubuntu onto NTFS partition? Come on!

              * "Ubuntu lacks any acceptable GUI tools and it is impossible for BFU to manage that system"
              YES


              But I see no genuine basis for any of this, and when you are called out on it, you simply respond with insults and more baseless claims.
              Because you does not want to see. For example the last point. Look at the ubuntu wiki. 90% of how to begins "Open the terminal" or something like that. You don't see? OK. Pick up the DrakX or Yast2. Explore them precisely. And then find something comparable in Ubuntu. Even that gnome-control-center was ported to upstream Gnome from Novell/SUSE distros. Imagine how many times i heard about great Ubuntu developed such a nice gnome-control-panel...

              Whan asked to tell us how Ubuntu uniquely fails miserably by the general levels of quality that are set by the whole Linux landscape you don't seem to have any valid points to make.
              Funny. I never claimed that. The whole discussion I was an opossition to Blackstar, claiming the Ubuntu is best for this and that. I claimed that ubuntu is not better because.... nothing more.

              According to my experience half of Ubuntu releases failed to boot on my HW to X. According to my experience, Ubuntu had many annoying bugs for me, i did not meet in other distros. But thats my experience and I don't force others to accept it. I claim it is bullshit to claim ubuntu better for average user than other distribution. Nothing more.

              Let me state for the third or fourth time. Ubuntu is not perfect. Neither is Fedora, OpenSuse, Debian, Mandriva, etc, etc. There currently is no perfect distro available.
              I'm glad finally you agree with me.

              When you put forward your position that you don't understand why so many people consider Ubuntu to best the best choice from the choices that are available, people try to explain why this might be so. You then simply respond with mostly rubbish.
              I don't see so many people. I just see marketing and fanatics. And as I said, i can not accept any Blackstar argument that ubuntu has some feature exclusively, when it obviously is not true.

              If you wish to criticise a particular weakness in Ubuntu.
              I wish to criticize Canonical and Ubuntu community. I did not want any discussion about ubuntu distribution itself and I strongly recommend to you to check who started this Off-topic flame. It was not me!

              Comment


              • So back to the topic.

                Many of guys here claimed, Ubuntu attract BFU users. OK. Lets suppose this argument true. But what does it mean to community? Nothing!

                It is devious to think that community is charity creating software for everyone. Community is large ecosystem of people creating software for themselves primarily. If I need a program A, and it does not exist, I create it. using an Opensource license lets you guys to use it and when you create program B under opensource license, I can benefit from it. Now we can use bunch of a programs without need to create them all individually many times, or buy them. This is sharing. The one of the most important idea of community.

                If somebody else does not create, does not report bugs, does not write a documentation or at least does not fund community, he is not a part of community.

                He can just shut up and be happy. Thats how it works. Even if ubuntu attract zillions of users, BFU users doing nothing, it is nothing for community. Because those zillions of users can just shut up and be happy they are allowed to use others work.

                Community does not care whether its software is used by some ubuntu john from nowhere. It does not need him. until he does something and give something back. Maybe it is commercial project to earn money. But don't confuse it with term community.

                That why Ubuntu is not part of community no matter how many users use it.
                Last edited by next9; 12-04-2009, 06:54 AM.

                Comment


                • * That Ubuntu only take, and give nothing back.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES.
                  You are wrong here.

                  * When buying support from Canonical, none of the money provides a benefit to the upstream projects.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. Almost. (I know they have 0.1% patches in kernel etc...)
                  You yourself say you are wrong here.

                  Ubuntu do upstream patches which are partially funded by their commercial work, as well as with funds from the good graces of Mark Shuttleworth.

                  * No upstream developers, not even one single one, is happy with Ubuntu feedback.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  A little bit different.. I haven't seen any upstream developer satisfied with Ubuntu feedback. I have seen so many have not been satisfied.
                  So this is just your own opinion then.

                  * Ubuntu is a circus based on drove of Shuttleworth sheep.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. (this was reaction on ubuntu free-ness and powerful community). Let have a look, how ubuntu project vote. Shuttleworth pre-select, and community can vote 5 of 8 person (or something like that). What important decissions were made by ubuntu community? Almost none. Shuttleworth rules.
                  So initiatives such as ubuntu brainstorm provide no way for the community to have their say on what happens with Ubuntu then?

                  * You claim Ubuntu doesn't have the largest base of users
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  NO. I claim, that user-base can not be measured, because Linux is decentralized ecosystem. I claim, it is really funny, that the only distro have ever declared itself to be the most used was ubuntu! Nobody did it so loudly before ubuntu, and nobody does it today. Nobody except Ubuntu has need to do so. It is funny to see efforts of Ubuntu idiots claim Ubuntu best instead of doing some work. So much energy wasted uselessly on marketing instead of helping community.
                  Well yes, the user base can be measured.

                  Given the overwhelming numbers in Ubuntu's favor even providing for a fair amount of error in the numbers, I think we can safely say that yes, Ubuntu currently has the most desktop users.

                  Ubuntu is also not the only distro to claim usage stats. In-fact, Fedora have their very own page on usage stats for their distro, hosted on their very own servers!

                  And then we have more name calling. Did you consider that people can not only defend a project, but also contribute work to it as well.

                  * No Ubuntu patches go upstream
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. According to many upstream developers. i am not upstream developer.
                  You yourself stated that yes, Ubuntu do provide patches upstream.

                  * That Canonical sponsored code is only usable in Ubuntu.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  NO. They have some patches accepted, so this claim can not be truth. I say that most visible Ubuntu "projects" are accepted mainly by Ubuntu only or created to support Ubuntu ecosystem. Not Linux ecosystem.
                  You both claim that Ubuntu does have code upstreamed, and then say no they do not. So which is it that you believe.

                  * That Canonical has paid for devs to be used by Google,
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. And I was wrong here. My informations were imperfect.
                  * Then claim that Canonical only provide code when it's paid for by others.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  IRONY connected to previous point.
                  * Packages in Ubutnu's PPA's are unfindable,
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  NO. But Almost unfindable. Every time I tried it was horror for me, to find package I want. Searching portal is very ugly designed.
                  I find it quite usable myself, but each to their own.

                  And as with all things internetty, Google is your friend. And, for lots of projects with PPA's, they will often link to them.

                  * That you have tries evey version since 5.04 and in your opinion it "strongly sucks",
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. Completely.
                  Your view doesn't seem to reflect the majority view, but of course you're welcome to your own opinion.

                  * ubuntu is not so free.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES (this was reaction). Blackstar claimed that SUSE is not free. I proved that Ubuntu is LESS free than SUSE.
                  You said it was less free, but you provided no valid basis for this, and therefore I would suggest that you didn't prove it at all.

                  Interestingly, OpenSuse have only recently changed their license to GLP v2.

                  * You "Forgot to mention non-compatible combination of kernel and intel xorg drivers they uselessly included into last ubuntu version,"
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES.
                  Had they stayed with the old drivers, they would've received flamage, just as they did when they moved to the new ones. So it is for each individual to decide for themselves whether it was worth the move to the new version of Ubuntu, or to stay with the one they had or move to another distro not shipping this kernel/DRM combination.

                  * You suggest both OpenSuse and Mandriva live CD's are easier for a novice user.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  NO. I told Blackstar, that live CD installer with options to install from Windows environment is not Ubuntu exclusive. So this can't be example, what Ubuntu does better for BFU.
                  Another subtlety you miss. Many distros can provide Windows based installers, but unless they are exactly the same, it's likely one will do a better job than the other.

                  *You claim that Ubuntu's support for closed codecs is lacking when compared to other distros,
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  NO. I claim that Ubuntu support is NOT BETTER compared to other distros. Some ultimedia are easier in Ubuntu, some multimedie are easier somewhere else. I don't see problem in any distro and I can't accept claim that Ubuntu is best in this task because this is obviously not true. In the end, adding all common multimedia support to Ubuntu is even a little bit harder because of adding medibuntu repository to apt sources. Thats not problem for me, but Blackstar claims, that Ubuntu has best multimedia support for BFU are just lies.
                  No, you said that...
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  Dont know about Mandriva, but Opensuse know to play mp3 by the default, Ubuntu does not. You just lie because even ubuntu needs external medibuntu repositories for varied multimedia.
                  Your position that OpenSuse had mp3 outta the box wan't correct, and you still haven't demonstrated how OpenSuse has superior codec handling than Ubuntu. Event if Ubuntu wasn't the absolute best in this area, it's certainly very good, and in combination with its many other good attributes makes it a very good distro indeed.

                  * Canonical is a European company and therefore isn't exposed to the same kind of legal troubles as say Novell is.
                  Originally posted by next9 View Post
                  YES. Everybody who thinks, ubuntu is so genius they invented how to add mp3 support automatically, is idiot. This is such a stupid task, everybody can realize. But. No official mp3 support in Novell (and Red Hat too) stuff is company politics, many times officially claimed. It is precaution preventing SW patent attack. This kind of attack can be done only in US, nowhere else.
                  Wrong again. If Ubuntu is shipped with mp3 support standard it will prevent distribution of Ubuntu in the U.S.A.

                  Comment


                  • * You see no value in the Ubuntu Wubi installer for novice users,
                    Originally posted by next9 View Post
                    YES. I don't see any Windows with easy installers but everybody use them, install them, etc. Let's try to install Windows onto you Linux machine, and you will se. Corrupted file systems, destroyed bootloader, etc... everything is possible. Still, most of the people use Windows. Because people are not complete idiots.

                    Do you want to test Linux? Run it in the virtual machine. Do you want to test it more? Install it on your drive. It is easier for BFU to install common Linux distro than Install Windows. Most of the Windows users does not even know how to Install Windows. And you tell me that these users should have the possibility to install Ubuntu onto NTFS partition? Come on!
                    Lucky for everyone else you don't make the decisions then. Some find the Wubi installer most valuable.

                    * "Ubuntu lacks any acceptable GUI tools and it is impossible for BFU to manage that system"
                    Originally posted by next9 View Post
                    YES

                    Because you does not want to see. For example the last point. Look at the ubuntu wiki. 90% of how to begins "Open the terminal" or something like that. You don't see? OK. Pick up the DrakX or Yast2. Explore them precisely. And then find something comparable in Ubuntu. Even that gnome-control-center was ported to upstream Gnome from Novell/SUSE distros. Imagine how many times i heard about great Ubuntu developed such a nice gnome-control-panel...
                    Wrong yet again (I think I see a pattern emerging)

                    Wiki's for all distros contain many references to command line based administration.

                    I cannot ever fathom how you would make such a statement with a straight face.


                    Originally posted by next9 View Post
                    Funny. I never claimed that. The whole discussion I was an opossition to Blackstar, claiming the Ubuntu is best for this and that. I claimed that ubuntu is not better because.... nothing more.

                    According to my experience half of Ubuntu releases failed to boot on my HW to X. According to my experience, Ubuntu had many annoying bugs for me, i did not meet in other distros. But thats my experience and I don't force others to accept it. I claim it is bullshit to claim ubuntu better for average user than other distribution. Nothing more.


                    I'm glad finally you agree with me.
                    No, I don't agree with you here. Your experience with Ubuntu on the hardware YOU have used is of course valid, but it doesn't follow that EVERYONE has had the same experience.

                    You feel that Ubuntu is no better for the average user than any other distro, but the usage statistics as well as a lot of user commentary would suggest the complete opposite of what you say.

                    Originally posted by next9 View Post
                    I don't see so many people. I just see marketing and fanatics. And as I said, i can not accept any Blackstar argument that ubuntu has some feature exclusively, when it obviously is not true.

                    I wish to criticize Canonical and Ubuntu community. I did not want any discussion about ubuntu distribution itself and I strongly recommend to you to check who started this Off-topic flame. It was not me!
                    You made the anti Canonical assertions. You directed some to Canonical as an organsiation, and some at the Ubuntu project. You then suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an Ubuntu fanboi.

                    If you flame, you may get flamage back.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by next9 View Post
                      So back to the topic.

                      Many of guys here claimed, Ubuntu attract BFU users. OK. Lets suppose this argument true. But what does it mean to community? Nothing!

                      It is devious to think that community is charity creating software for everyone. Community is large ecosystem of people creating software for themselves primarily. If I need a program A, and it does not exist, I create it. using an Opensource license lets you guys to use it and when you create program B under opensource license, I can benefit from it. Now we can use bunch of a programs without need to create them all individually many times, or buy them. This is sharing. The one of the most important idea of community.

                      If somebody else does not create, does not report bugs, does not write a documentation or at least does not fund community, he is not a part of community.

                      He can just shut up and be happy. Thats how it works. Even if ubuntu attract zillions of users, BFU users doing nothing, it is nothing for community. Because those zillions of users can just shut up and be happy they are allowed to use others work.

                      Community does not care whether its software is used by some ubuntu john from nowhere. It does not need him. until he does something and give something back. Maybe it is commercial project to earn money. But don't confuse it with term community.

                      That why Ubuntu is not part of community no matter how many users use it.
                      Linux needs a critical mass in order to attract independent hardware and software developers. It doesn't need to be 50% or even 10%. It's likely however that the more users out there, the better things will be. If Ubuntu provided nothing more that a user base to attract driver and software development such as things like Photoshop and After Effects, then I think this would be fantastic in itself.

                      Ubuntu's no-tech user-base also provides testing for software with its associated bug reports that can help developers fix things.

                      Many feel that end users are a good thing. Of course, Linux is nothing without the developers, documenters, admin, etc as well though. But to suggest end users of Ubuntu are nothing more that leaches sucking the life from Linux, and providing absolutely nothing in return is extremely insulting.

                      I think you could learn a thing or two about community yourself.

                      Comment


                      • I completely agree with you actually Ubuntu has earned some hype level, everybody heard name of that Linux distribution, or red about it somewhere. Companies and other Vendors are heard about it too and even selling computers with it more often. So I think Ubuntu can cause more good than bad. It's exactly like with ChromeOS which is in my opinion an epic fail for operating system idea, but Google stated that they wanna have every hardware supported with their system including those paperweight printers. ChromeOS is of course a Linux with a fancy web browser desktop environment and history shows that Google might be evil but it contribute his work to open source community.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by next9 View Post
                          That why Ubuntu is not part of community no matter how many users use it.
                          If the rest of the community is like you, I hope they stay as far away from it as possible. In any other company, this would be a bizarro discussion if the company is too customer-focused. Ubuntu is primarily a community of the users, by the users and for the users. I'm sorry that we don't follow the same hierarchy where upstream developer = god and enduser = leech.

                          We. the users, don't care which distro kisses upstream's butt the best. We use the distro that works best for us, if that means keeping their own patchset fine or sending it upstream also fine. Either way, open source code is written and our problems are solved. In our view we are on top, Canonical is helping us, and you are either the people helping Canonical helping us or you're not.

                          Don't like it? That fine, as long as you don't want users. Just don't bitch when you're not having any users, not getting any attention, not getting any company support because all the users go to distros that care about users.

                          I probably don't mean this post as harsh as it came out, but I do get pissed at people that seem to presume a distro's highest duty is to make sure it all goes back upstream. Or somehow think it's a problem that your interior decorator isn't doing much foundation work and plumbing. I really hope it doesn't go so far that each distro is just doing their own thing and upstream is the one trying to poach and merge downstream patches, but the only thing stopping them is really the upkeep cost.

                          To be honest, I understand people that don't want to deal with upstream. Downstream you can file a bug report like "x worked in version 1.2, is broken in version 1.3". Upstream, I'll get asked to do debug traces and compiling the latest nightly and git bisects or applying this experimental patch and whatnot. If I have a bug that cost me ten minutes of grief, I just want to notify someone. I don't want to spent another five hours co-debugging it with you.

                          If I do, it's because I sacrifice something for the community too but if the developers get little credit that certainly gives you even less. In fact, mostly you owe credit because the developer expects you to be grateful for using his time. I can sort of understand, but it still doesn't help me. I very, very rarely have bugs that impact me so seriously I can honestly say it's better to spend the time having it fixed than just ignore it or work around it without telling anyone.

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                          • Originally posted by tormod View Post
                            LOL, so since Ubuntu made notify-osd, who is actually "upstream" then?
                            They didn't try to add their additions to the freedesktop.org standard, or try pushing it into gnome, and actually 'replacing' libnotify rather than just keeping it in their distro, and patching everything to work with it.

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                            • Kjella, your position is so short sightened it makes me sick. If every distro would act like crap-buntu, there would be zero process. X would be still like in 3.6 days. dbus? Nope. Drivers for sata? nope. sound drivers? nope. radeon? nope. Intel drivers? nope.

                              This is not about 'endusers = leeches'. This is about 'distros which play nicely and distros which do not'.

                              Ubuntu belongs to the second group. They take and they give nothing back. Oh wait, Ubuntu created a bunch of nose-high-in-the-air, I-am-so-cool ubuntards giving everybody else a bad name.

                              I can live without that 'contribution'.
                              Last edited by energyman; 12-04-2009, 08:56 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by energyman View Post
                                This is not about 'endusers = leeches'. This is about 'distros which play nicely and distros which do not'.

                                Ubuntu belongs to the second group. They take and they give nothing back. Oh wait, Ubuntu created a bunch of nose-high-in-the-air, I-am-so-cool ubuntards giving everybody else a bad name.

                                I can live without that 'contribution'.
                                And if you knew what you were talking about that would be great.

                                To make that statement means you must be ignorant of what Ubuntu does for the community.

                                Remember, everything they do is available to whom ever wants to use it.

                                They make additions to upstream projects, and those patches are available to them.

                                They also focus on the various pieces that glue together a distro to try and make the user experience more pleasant.

                                The evidence available out there prove that your statements are completely false.

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