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  • Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    True. He ignores real arguments and talks about thing he doesn't have even idea. It's not even worth to continue this thread, because winboys messed it too much. One time they talk about compatibility with old programs, then about completely different things and now you can read about wine. It's second Yotambien approach to proof windows is better without giving arguments. What I learned from his posts is he has many complexes. Probably someone told him Windows and Macos are bad. The best thing is their nonsenses have no reflection in reality. However, maybe it's desperate try to cure wounded ego?
    No complexes my friend. That's a hard word to tell for someone you know only through forums. It's easy to misunderstand someone by what he writes through distance since maybe he is not good at wrting or even he misunderstood you in first place.
    The obvious imo is that he has different filosophy. Probably open source and the freedom to share doesn't meen too much for him or are very low in his priorities since he is so eager to buy and defend proprietary code, while for the most of us the very essence of a program's quality is how much freedom it carries in its package.
    Anyway, filosophies are built on arguments and vary rarely eventuate to agreements. So I don't see any positive reason for anyone to continue this thread rather than argue till eternity.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Apopas View Post
      No complexes my friend. That's a hard word to tell for someone you know only through forums. It's easy to misunderstand someone by what he writes through distance since maybe he is not good at wrting or even he misunderstood you in first place.
      The obvious imo is that he has different filosophy. Probably open source and the freedom to share doesn't meen too much for him or are very low in his priorities since he is so eager to buy and defend proprietary code, while for the most of us the very essence of a program's quality is how much freedom it carries in its package.
      Anyway, filosophies are built on arguments and vary rarely eventuate to agreements. So I don't see any positive reason for anyone to continue this thread rather than argue till eternity.
      Well said I was thinking about complexes related to operating systems and their licenses. It's hard to imagine for some people they can have something better for free or they just don't know it. About PDF viewer, Okular is the best out there, but it's only my humble opinion :>

      P.S. Philosophy - that's a point!
      Last edited by kraftman; 05-24-2009, 10:23 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by deanjo View Post
        Read the WineHQ list. I can quite literally list 100's of apps that do not work in any shape or function ranging from Win 3.1 titles to todays latest.
        Great argument, I can list 100's of windows apps that dont work in any shape or form on windows...

        I work at a place that deals with support for a wide array of server systems (although it's mostly windows/unix/linux systems), and I run into windows not being compatible with windows all the time.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by neuron View Post
          Great argument, I can list 100's of windows apps that dont work in any shape or form on windows...

          I work at a place that deals with support for a wide array of server systems (although it's mostly windows/unix/linux systems), and I run into windows not being compatible with windows all the time.
          Do you really want to seriously compare windows apps compatibility in windows to windows apps in wine?

          Comment


          • At the end of the day, Wine is just translating native Windows applications. That can only get us so far, we need native software!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by deanjo View Post
              Do you really want to seriously compare windows apps compatibility in windows to windows apps in wine?
              Now your putting words into my mouth, what I'm saying is that finding software that isn't working properly isn't hard, and it isn't proof of anything.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by neuron View Post
                Now your putting words into my mouth, what I'm saying is that finding software that isn't working properly isn't hard, and it isn't proof of anything.
                Did you or did you not say:

                May have been true years ago, however your talking about running old windows programs he's run for years, and wine works perfectly well for that scenario and is rock stable. Hell some software run faster under wine than under windows (I remember I got higher fps running Q3 under wine than in windows).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                  Did you or did you not say:
                  Absolutely, most old windows programs will run perfectly, I did not however say all old windows programs will run perfectly.

                  And I imagine a lot of the same programs would fail on newer versions of windows aswell, anything not following standards properly/misusing api to produce a specific result etc.

                  Rock stable does not mean "will run program X that intentionally misused api on windows X to skip some checks to improve performance"... It was never WINE's mission to run windows software with better windows backwards compatibility than windows itself.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                    About PDF viewer, Okular is the best out there, but it's only my humble opinion :>
                    It rocks yeah, but as a GNOME user I prefer Evince

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by neuron
                      Linux has had better support for pdf than windows has for years, windows still requires custom software to load one, linux has both had this built in, and ability to export to pdf in most software for years, we have no need for acrobat reader...
                      Originally posted by neuron
                      ...wtf is your problem? This is pure trolling, windows requires software to read and write pdf, a lot of linux applications have write capability, and every distro out there comes with a reader which works perfectly fine.
                      Originally posted by Apopas
                      Why the hell evince sucks? Pdf viewers are used to read pdf files. Fast and plainly. Fullscreen, next, previous, better fit etc... I can't really see why to install 50 MB just to read pdfs? Hell even in windows machines a lot of guys don't use acrobat reader
                      Only until recently, one of the high priority projects of the Free Software Foundation was GNU PDF. That's quite a contradiction with your 'better support for years' mythological truth. Fortunately, the FSF people don't lack the capacity of self-criticism and analysis that you cheerfully toss around. My problem is that knee-jerk replies like this, where you state nonsense like 'built-in linux ability to export pdf files' or 'windows requires software to read and write pdfs' make me wonder whether you actually have _something_ to say. That Acroread 'piece of crap' thing renders the text better than xpdf, Kpdf, Evince or Okular (I tried them all, thankyouverymuch), is faster at doing it, more flexible (try it and look at the options, or try to disable sub-pixel smoothing in Kpdf, for instance), and doesn't _miserably_ choke when loading BIG pdf files with high (as in high) resolution images. Filling pdf forms in linux was one of those exotic things people would try to do with pdftk or loading the file in Inscape, Gimp or Scribus, adding some text and exporting back, or some other braindead solution. Acroread can do this. In all fairness, it seems that Okular and latest versions of Evince have catched up with this, which IS good. There is, of course, a long way to what Adobe Pro can do, and unfortunately there's not a Linux version as of yet--so I have to do shit with, say, pdftk, to achive the simplest things. For a change, you could start realizing that there's a world beyond what you know that have some needs about which you may not have a clue.

                      Originally posted by Apopas
                      You say that fortunately adobe ported it to Linux, but isn't that what you finally want? To see every stupid program to be ported to Linux? But I can see what's your major problem finally. Skype is good because the rest of the world uses it. Ekiga is a piece of crap because is used only by a few Linux geeks so is Linux. Since windows are used by 90% then they are the best. Seriously sir I liked to argue with you but you dissapointed me with your last statement!
                      No, you have not got my point, and by a long shot. But I'll make it again because you look like a nice, honest guy. My point is that I want to have high quality applications and drivers available in my OS of choice--and why it is my choice I don't feel it's relevant. I named those two cases, pdf handling and Skype(*), as two examples of what closed source solutions can bring in terms of quality to this platform. You may disagree about the quality difference between Acroread/whatever and Skype/whatever. But, however great an affinity you have for open source applications and ideals, I want to believe that, at least, you don't really consider those two programs to be 'a piece of crap' in terms of how good they are at what they intent to. Now, skip all the trash and go back some pages in the thread; remember what was being said about stable ABI or not? There you have it, so again it goes: I want companies to consider Linux seriously and make their products available to this platform. I want the _enormous_ gap between Windows and Linux in terms of existing software to narrow. I think Wine is NOT a solution in any conceivable way--leave alone that it doesn't actually deliver--and what is needed, open source or otherwise, are native applications. So let's complete the chain: I also happen to believe that the fact that the Linux kernel (and distributions) appear to always be a moving target makes it harder for anybody to create and maintain code for this platform.

                      Now, although quite generous, there's a limit to the amount of shit I'm ready to get from anybody. I have, directly or indirectly, been called stupid, idiot, troll, accussed of having some sort of agenda to promote god knows what and I apparently even have some psychological problems. I want to believe that this will stop now and here.


                      (*) If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'. The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                        (*) If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'. The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.
                        Amen

                        next time i go to court, your my representation

                        Comment


                        • @Yotambien

                          Now, although quite generous, there's a limit to the amount of shit I'm ready to get from anybody. I have, directly or indirectly, been called stupid, idiot, troll, accussed of having some sort of agenda to promote god knows what and I apparently even have some psychological problems. I want to believe that this will stop now and here.
                          Actually, you gave a lot of bull here and some idiotic examples, so this childish trick won't make look smarter. Stop writing nonsenses and then it will stop.

                          P.S. There must be some reasons why people call you that.

                          The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.
                          It concerns you and some of your follower as well.
                          Last edited by kraftman; 05-25-2009, 03:31 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Well, one'd have to sum up that whole Windows-is-better preaching as at least minor trolling, since this is a Linux BBS, after all.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                              No, you have not got my point, and by a long shot. But I'll make it again because you look like a nice, honest guy. My point is that I want to have high quality applications and drivers available in my OS of choice--and why it is my choice I don't feel it's relevant. I named those two cases, pdf handling and Skype(*), as two examples of what closed source solutions can bring in terms of quality to this platform. You may disagree about the quality difference between Acroread/whatever and Skype/whatever. But, however great an affinity you have for open source applications and ideals, I want to believe that, at least, you don't really consider those two programs to be 'a piece of crap' in terms of how good they are at what they intent to. Now, skip all the trash and go back some pages in the thread; remember what was being said about stable ABI or not? There you have it, so again it goes: I want companies to consider Linux seriously and make their products available to this platform. I want the _enormous_ gap between Windows and Linux in terms of existing software to narrow. I think Wine is NOT a solution in any conceivable way--leave alone that it doesn't actually deliver--and what is needed, open source or otherwise, are native applications. So let's complete the chain: I also happen to believe that the fact that the Linux kernel (and distributions) appear to always be a moving target makes it harder for anybody to create and maintain code for this platform.
                              We are going to disagree again mate about stabl;e ABI and such. A stable ABI and the major import of every proprietary application (despite its quality) will make Linux a bit more free version of Windows in my opinion but no reason to speak again for this. We'll never agree. But you must admit that your phrase
                              The rest of the world uses something else.
                              can be misunderstood even by the smartest ones.


                              If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'.
                              Then why use Skype? Despite its features is not an application someone needs for a living! like photoshop or 3dSmax. Since the inherently attribute (that's the corect word?) of communication, as you said, is so important then why to not "sacrifice" these more options and use open source protocols?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                                That Acroread 'piece of crap' thing renders the text better than xpdf, Kpdf, Evince or Okular (I tried them all, thankyouverymuch), is faster at doing it, more flexible (try it and look at the options, or try to disable sub-pixel smoothing in Kpdf, for instance), and doesn't _miserably_ choke when loading BIG pdf files with high (as in high) resolution images. Filling pdf forms in linux was one of those exotic things people would try to do with pdftk or loading the file in Inscape, Gimp or Scribus, adding some text and exporting back, or some other braindead solution. Acroread can do this. In all fairness, it seems that Okular and latest versions of Evince have catched up with this, which IS good. There is, of course, a long way to what Adobe Pro can do, and unfortunately there's not a Linux version as of yet--so I have to do shit with, say, pdftk, to achive the simplest things. For a change, you could start realizing that there's a world beyond what you know that have some needs about which you may not have a clue.
                                Well I can hardly see this quality of Acrobat's and the crapiness of the other programs! I couldn't stand this thing at all so download and installed Adobe's software and made a comparison with Evince (unfortunately i can't install Okular which is even better imo because I'll need to compile the whole KDE)!

                                If you don't mind to spend 10 minutes from your life check these

                                Well, here is some kind of comparison I did between the last versions of Evince and Acrobat Reader. I did this to prove that Evince doesn't suck and chocks the system with big files. as some guys believe and its a reliable, fast and comfortable application for everyday use. I used a big enough pdf file with a lot of text and high quality pictures.

                                keep in mind these:
                                a) My proccessor is a 5 years old athlon 64 one. From the first 64 bit proccessors that were born. I believe In a newer CPU things would run much smoothly and hardly any difference will be noticeable.
                                b) The performance decreased dramatically because of the recording program which ate a lot of my cpu and enough memory. In reality these two programs perform much better (I didn't notice any big difference, actually). Consider this as if I had Firefox and media player up as I use to do.
                                c) My Gnome Desktop was running apps I run always like (compiz, avant, cairo clock, yarssr etc). I didn't disable them because I wanted the benchmark to belong in the real world since I read pdfs and do every job with that kind of stuff up and running.
                                d) Each test took place just after a system's full restart. I didn't want to keep anything in memory etc... (look the uptime on the bottom of gkrellm)
                                e) Some artifacts and weird shadows are just record's problem.

                                Here are the videos, almost 7 mins in length both and 50 MB large.

                                http://rapidshare.com/files/23712160...roread.7z.html

                                CONCLUSIONS:
                                1) It seems that under heavy load, Evince performs better. Especially in pages from 32 and above this is more obvious. Even in pages that seems to need more time to be loaded it loads them correctly while Acrobat Reader seems to load them instantly but needs a second "check" to display them correctly.
                                2) Evince was more responsive. Notice that the number of the page on the top is displayed simultanesouly with the page, while in Acrobat Reader first you see the number to change and then the page to be displayed. That means you click for the next page and Acrobat looks as if needs few milliseconds more to understand what's going on.
                                3) The amount of RAM Evince needed was lesser than Adobe's software by 25% and needed lees time to run.
                                4) The text and image rendering was perfect and identical in both applications.
                                5) Evince's package was 980 KB and it needed just 3.5 MB for installation. ( I admit it needs poppler libraries for pdf support but they are just few KB as well and already installed with Gimp)
                                6) Acrobat on the other hand needed 143.6 MB for installation but asked for xulrunner-bin to be installed as well which was 40.8 MB. So the total amount of installation was 184.3 MB! (As a 32 bit application it needed even more libraries to work under a 64 bit system).
                                7) Acrobat Reader had many more options than Evince. But its subjective if the casual user really needs them. It reminded me when I go to the supermarket and then I discover that I need things I never needed till then... (just personal opinion I repeat).
                                The most important feature I didn't find in Acrobat Reader was support of my native language.
                                8) And last, Acrobat Reader was like a "foreign body" with the rest of my desktop.


                                PS: Seriously even if AR was opensource I wouldn't use that thing...
                                Last edited by Apopas; 05-25-2009, 01:42 PM.

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