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  • #16
    That would be a sad indictment on the state of Debian since it is not that easy to install KDE.
    That is pure fiction, it IS that easy. Download ANY Debian install CD (even the CD1 with GNOME or Xfce) and (assuming network access during the install) you can enter "desktop=kde" at the first prompt that comes up when you boot the CD, and VOILA! KDE gets installed if you choose the Desktop role during the installation procedure. If you can't get network access during the installation, you use one of the alternate CD1's (there are 2, one with KDE, one with XFCE), or use a DVD which contains both KDE and GNOME (and probably XFCE too). With the DVD you must use the desktop=kde or desktop=xfce options, because GNOME is still the default (OH NOES!!!). Also, when you are presented with the prompt to enter that option(and/or others), there's help text on the screen explaining to press F1 (I think it's F1) for help docs which cover a slew of options, including the desktop= one. So even if one couldn't be bothered to look up debian-installer boot flags in the manual/howto, or to look for an alternate CD1, they can still learn about the options just by booting whatever CD they did download and burn. That said, those who can't even be bothered to read up on the installation procedure/options should probably consider running Ubuntu or something.

    By the way the Debian installer has been flawed and buggy for years but Debian always insisted on releasing it with bugs.
    Originally posted by http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
    To install Debian testing, we recommend you use the lenny beta2 release of the installer, after checking its errata.
    I don't think I've ever used anything but testing releases of debian-installer, and I have never had any issues. Any bugs that may have been present have never affected my experience. They clearly suggest you read the errata before installing the testing branch, and I don't even need to look up Debian procedure to know that for stable releases (like Etch, and in September if things go well, Lenny), debian-installer will not be released with bugs (certainly not enough bugs to warrant a description like "flawed and buggy"). I tried to install RC1 of Ubuntu Hardy a while back. The install failed because grub wouldn't install to hda6, and on top of that glaring error, Ubiquity wouldn't let me put /home on a separate partition. All the times I've used testing releases of debian-installer, I have never had any issues installing grub somewhere other than hda1/sda1, nor any issues with mounting separate partitions for /home and /usr. debian-installer rocks, period.

    Synaptic is not included in the default KDE install because it's a GTK application. With KDE you get Adept and Kpackage (not to mention aptitude itself). You're perfectly welcome to run "aptitude install synaptic" if you so choose. Just like you're perfectly welcome to install KDE4 RIGHT NOW out of experimental. If you did you wouldn't be complaining about KDE4 not being included in Lenny because - perish the thought - it's just not ready yet, and it wasn't ready in time for Lenny's release schedule.
    there is no bias against KDE.
    There, fixed that for you. Maybe you should read up on how Debian works before you go making accusations about it being biased one way or the other. You're saying because Debian hasn't abandoned the procedures it's based on just so it can include KDE4 before it's really ready for prime-time, Debian's biased against KDE. As I said before, BONKERS.

    Pretty much everything is SID has bugs. They also call it UNSTABLE eh. When those bugs have been wittled down to the point where a package meets the release criteria, and has lived in SID for 10 days in that state, it gets moved into testing. Every so often, testing becomes the next Debian stable (with ZERO bugs for every package being the criteria for stable IIRC). KDE4 simply doesn't currently meet the criteria for a Debian stable release.

    Comment


    • #17
      The following makes it clear that Debian is LYING when it says that large numbers of bugs are keeping KDE4 out of the Lenny release at the end of the year.

      Yes Debian is LYING.

      KDE4 bugs according to Debian:

      (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (1 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (2 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (1 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (3 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable

      The following packages from KDE4 do not even have a bug report page of their own.
      The following packages from KDE4 link to the bug report of version 3.5.9-1 in unstable
      The bug report link on the KDE4 packages page redirects you to the bug report of version 3.5.9-1,....

      So we assume that NO bugs have been found in the KDE4 version of the package.

      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdeartwork (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdeedu (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdegames (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdeadmin (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdegraphics (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdemultimedia (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdenetwork (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdepim (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
      http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kdeutils (KDE4)
      links to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable

      So a total of SEVEN KDE4 bugs are known to (ie recorded by) Debian :

      THESE 7 BUGS APPARENTLY KEEP KDE4 OUT OF LENNY.


      KDE4 only exists in experimental. Hence the links to the experimental branch.

      Gnome bugs according to Debian:

      (21 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...e;dist=testing
      (9 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...t;dist=testing
      (28 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...s;dist=testing
      (5 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...e;dist=testing
      (4 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...s;dist=testing
      (4 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...s;dist=testing

      At this point we have 71 bugs from just these few gnome packages from Lenny (testing).

      Testing will be released as Lenny later in the year.

      These 71 bugs will NOT keep gnome from being released in Lenny.

      How the 7 bugs reported by Debian in KDE4 will keep KDE4 out of lenny.


      Gnome will be in Lenny because in just a few of its packages Debian reports 71 bugs.
      KDE4 will NOT be in Lenny because in all of its packages Debian reports 7 bugs.

      But remember,... there is (supposedly) no bias against KDE.
      Last edited by Jade; 06-27-2008, 10:11 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        What are you talking about?

        There is no KDE 4 end-user version. Nada, it does not exist. No normal users are supposed to be using KDE 4.

        KDE 3 is included, so where is the problem?

        Comment


        • #19
          What the hell are you doing there, Jade?

          You're posting bugreports from some projects that do not belong to KDE and the bugreports of KDE 3.5.9 from Sid, not a single KDE4 bug report. Furthermore, you're posting only a few of the many Gnome packages and this time you are using the bug reports from testing instead of Sid? And on top of that, we are talking about upstream bugs, not packaging related bugs which most of the Debian bug reports are.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by d2kx View Post
            What the hell are you doing there, Jade?
            I didn't notice that MANY packages from KDE4 do not even have a bug report page of their own.

            The bug report link on the packages page redirects you to the bug report of version 3.5.9-1,....

            So we assume that NO bugs have been found in the KDE4 version of the package.

            The comment above makes it clear that Debian is LYING when it says that large numbers of bugs are keeping KDE4 out of the Lenny release at the end of the year.

            "And on top of that, we are talking about upstream bugs, not packaging related bugs which most of the Debian bug reports are."

            You mean that Debian doesn't even try to fix real bugs,... just packaging bugs,.... then there is absolutely no excuse from why Debian is so often soooooo out of date,.... except that they just want to be out of date,....
            Last edited by Jade; 06-27-2008, 10:18 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Did you notice that KDE4 is not in sid but in experimental? I don't think that too many users are trying it with Debian yet. The better/newer packages are for Kubuntu usually.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Linux Community Forum Saboteur
                I didn't notice that MANY packages from KDE4 do not even have a bug report page of their own.
                If you don't how Debian works, don't comment. Debian/experimental is not a distribution and therefore does not allow bug reporting, because these packages are really for experienced testers only.

                Originally posted by Conspiracist
                So we assume that NO bugs have been found in the KDE4 version of the package.
                We assume that it is too early to install them and to report bugs. If a software is not finished yet, you have to report bugs to upstream, not to Debian.

                Originally posted by Muffin Man
                The comment above makes it clear that Debian is LYING when it says that large numbers of bugs are keeping KDE4 out of the Lenny release at the end of the year.
                No. Lenny is up to date. It is frozen now and uses the latest KDE version for desktop users: 3.5.9. Why didn't you upload the final KDE 4.1 packages some weeks ago, before the freeze began? They could have tested them for stability then. Oh wait - KDE 4.1 is still under development.

                Originally posted by /dev/null
                You mean that Debian doesn't even try to fix real bugs,... just packaging bugs,.... then there is absolutely no excuse from why Debian is so often soooooo out of date,.... except that they just want to be out of date,....
                Debian fixes real bugs. If someone reports a bug related to KDE that is not related to the Debian packages, then the Debian package maintainer (Debian KDE-Team [or the DEBIAN KDE SABOTEURS if you wish]) forward that reported bug to the KDE bug tracking system. Oh, and Debian is not out of date. Name ten out of the 10000+ packages that are out of date, please:

                http://packages.debian.org/sid/allpackages (do you find any? - and remember that the freeze already has begun)
                Last edited by d2kx; 06-28-2008, 08:00 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by d2kx View Post
                  http://packages.debian.org/sid/allpackages (do you find any? - and remember that the freeze already has began)
                  Yeah, you're right I can't find any.
                  The page doesn't even load for me

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by d2kx
                    We assume that it is too early to install them and to report bugs.
                    WRONG. Are you writing this just to give the appearance of,... no problems?

                    Why did you ignore all the pages that are already available for KDE4 bugs,... let me repeat them for you:

                    KDE4 bugs according to Debian:

                    (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
                    (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
                    (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
                    (1 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable (KDE4 bug)
                    (2 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable (KDE4 bugs)
                    (1 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable (KDE4 bug)
                    (3 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable (KDE4 bugs)
                    (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable
                    (0 bugs) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgre...;dist=unstable

                    There are actually 7 bugs. These are all the bugs that Debian knows about for KDE4.

                    So basically Debian can't even list the KDE4 bugs that they claim keep KDE4 from making it into Lenny.

                    You know,... that is not a good look,....

                    Not a good look at all.


                    Originally posted by d2kx
                    If a software is not finished yet, you have to report bugs to upstream, not to Debian.
                    So on the 11th January 2008 when KDE 4.0 was released (as finished) by the KDE people, how many bad bugs were still too be fixed? How many bad bugs did the Debian people find that the KDE people didn't?

                    Zero,.... right?
                    Last edited by Jade; 06-28-2008, 10:10 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Vadi View Post
                      What are you talking about?

                      There is no KDE 4 end-user version. Nada, it does not exist. No normal users are supposed to be using KDE 4.

                      KDE 3 is included, so where is the problem?
                      Read above, and if you're the developer that KDE 4 is currently available to, you can surely compile it from scratch with ease.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        So does anyone else think that Debian's actions regarding KDE4 look very very suspicious?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jade View Post
                          So does anyone else think that Debian's actions regarding KDE4 look very very suspicious?
                          Not at all. If anything, Fedora's actions are. Not even including KDE 3.5 as an option (in Fedora 9) when KDE4 isn't even close to ready for everyday use yet is about as sure a way possible to turn people off of KDE. With the possible exception of openSUSE, which puts a lot of work into making its KDE4 more polished than other distro's, no distribution has any business making KDE4 the default yet; KDE 3.5.9 is stable, usable, and polished in its default state and is in no danger of being obsoleted just because KDE4 is out.

                          From what it sounds like, KDE4 will appear in Sid (as an option doubtless, not the only KDE) a few days after Lenny is released, to eventually become part of whatever Lenny's successor is. And it's already in Experimental for those who really like to live on the edge. I see no problem at all.
                          Last edited by borgus; 06-28-2008, 09:53 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I disagree. The fact that Red Hat/Fedora is worse does not change anything.

                            KDE4 does not have to obsolete KDE 3.5.9.

                            In the past two version of KDE have been offered and you can choose either. Although in the past eg KDE 3 would run all the KDE 2 apps so there was no demand for KDE2 to stick around.

                            Debian still has the QT2 libraries for older apps. Similarly, it now should have QT2, QT3 and QT4.

                            Debian is meant to be about setting up and packaging such arrangements.

                            So nothing you have said changes the fact that it appears that Debian can't even list the KDE4 bugs that they claim keep KDE4 from making it into Lenny.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              My apologies for bumping an old thread, but some if these accusations are simply absurd.

                              The Default CD1 Desktop is based on package popularity and only aimed at newbies (only one app for every task). Full/stock GNOME is pulled by a different dummy package. No politics involved at all.

                              Shipping both KDE3 and KDE4 was never an option. Debian simply hasn't enough people to maintain/patch/secure this following all quality guidelines/rules that come with "stable".

                              KDE isn't just QT (and most QT4 run libs are already included).

                              KDE4.0 was incomplete. (resulting in missing dependencies when upgrading from Etch)
                              Not all architectures are already supported either.

                              KDE4.1 is still (even today) in "experimental".
                              Debian doesn't (and never did) accept bug reports against packages in experimental.

                              PS: If you really care about new (buggy) software, use testing/unstable or backports.
                              Stable is meant to be rock solid and can't afford such risks.
                              Last edited by jensz; 07-30-2008, 05:53 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The problem with Debian unstable is that it crashes every few hours while unstable branches/repositories of other distros are running just fine.

                                Debian unstable (and testing too!) are more or less bugged like hell.

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