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Setting Up GNOME Is Easier With Version 3.12

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  • #41
    If gnome-shell extensions didn't break with every release, forks would not be needed

    Originally posted by Honton View Post
    Cinnamon was never about stopping breakage. It was way to make money. Fork, rename, reshuffle, blog4fame, keep doing releases until the sponsors go away. Cinnamon have entered the terminal phase now. chances are that Gnome-Shell will get reforked at 3.12. And that is the same thing happening with Wayland. Gnome and Red Hat hackers will make Wayland work AND add those new libs which will provide support for all those things from X that is not related to the rendering protocol. Once that is done others will get the Waland support. Not the other way around.

    There is no need to fork more code. Frippery does fine, Gnome-shell does fine.
    http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html
    Since I treat Ubuntu alphas as a rolling "upstream" release, extension breakage was a major problem until Cinnamon came along. I hope they do refork from 3.12 to bring in Wayland support. If they do that, debug it, then "park" the code, that's good enough. IceWM hasn't had new development in many years but is still available and works damned well for low-resource machines like my netbook. No reason Cinnamon can be made to work well with Wayland, then parked with what is not broken not needing to be fixed.

    Wayland will matter on big machines like I use when games and other demanding applications are ported to it or otherwise run faster than they do on X. Until then X will be superior for end users, but not after that point. If Cinnamon dies and I want a stable DE for my own use, I can do a private fork of either Cinnamon or g-s for my own use, worrying only about the featuures I use and ignoring all those I do not. Just changing gnome-shell's name at compile time would be enough to install it alongside vanilla GNOME for comparison while having Frippery/Cinnamon style extensions always work.

    One shortcoming in Frippery is not including a traditional system tray. Extensions written by others that provide it come, die when g-s changes, then sometimes another comes into existance. Nobody can begin writing these until the GNOME changes for a generation are finalized, however! Cinnamon always has a traditional system tray, essential for running Volti's volume control when Pulseaudio is not being used.

    A private, post-Cinnamon fork of g-s for my own use in a worst-case scenario would require a version of GNOME for which both Frippery and something like Topicons exist or for which I can port them over, and which supports Wayland. Once I have that working, I am free to install upstream GNOME alongside it and not worry about extensions always being broken in a DE used only for testing and not daily use. I would attempt to combine the bottom and top panels like in Cinnamon, would look at Cinnamon code for how to do that, but that will surely require figuring out more Javascript than I now know. If nobody else has a use for it, fine-I would be writing it to use in my own machines, then probably offering it to anyone else who wants it with no guarantees.

    Hell, the whole OS in my machines is effectively a private fork and blend of both UbuntuStudio and Mint, but has diverged quite far from either one over the years.

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    • #42
      The GNOME official extensions are relatively simple

      Originally posted by Honton View Post
      Well, then they could just contribute the work to Gnome Shell 3.12.X, and provide those extensions on git.gnome.org. Just like the official extensions. For every Gnome-shell release there is a gnome-shell extension module release. Like this.
      https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-s...e87c8888922ddc

      Just have a look at the entire tree for the official extensions. The maintenance burden is really low. It is like 30 commits excluding translations and trivial release bits. Only af few of those are adaption to new GS code. Forking and reforking is not justified. The reason for Cinnamon doing this is because of branding and attracting sponsors.
      For the most part, the GNOME official extensions are simple code, rather like the parts of Frippery that don't break when version checking is disabled and GNOME changes. Part of what led me to Cinnamon was a period where I could not port the older "classic systray" extension over and "topicons" wasn't out yet. Probably could have with some real javascript knowledge, this was just some very simple text hacking

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      • #43
        Why the personal attack?

        Originally posted by Honton View Post
        Not true at all. The official exensions are used in the the gnome-classic session. What the official extensions do right is to stay on Gnome infrastructure and co-release with Gnome-shell. I know where file bugs, browse code and get my source. This is not true for many other extensions AND cinnamon. We don't know if some of the Cinnamon patches or extensions would benefit uptream because the Cinnamon dude refuses to do upstream work. The now dead cinnamon stuff dies with author losing reason to continue.

        Do you know that guy at work who never admit that he build his success on the shoulders of co-workers?
        Do you know that guy at work who never helps co-workers despite he has solutions at hand?
        Do you know that guy at work who takes credit for others work by changing the author name?
        Do you know that guy at work who promises the clients too much and makes his co-workers take the blame when the pie in the sky falls to the ground?

        This Cinnamon (re)forking4fame is the exact same thing. Fake forking is bitwise trolling.
        Fame has nothing to do with making my OWN computer do what I want it to do. I need Kdenlive whether it is mantained or not, and I want to keep Cinnamon or something that works and looks like it, whether or not anyone else uses or mantains it. I would simply stop updating (permanently) if I have to give up Kdenlive or use an interface I don't like to do so.

        Some of this is on the verge of personal attacks on me.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Honton View Post
          Oh you just said Gnome was out of the question because they break extensions when Gnome get feature releases. You are more patient with cinnamon I see. You measure the software on different scales, that is a fallacy. You might not like Gnome, but this is not fair. If you can wait forever to get cinnamon updates, you can aso wait a few months to have the Gnome extensions get ready for new Gnome releases.
          >50% of extensions on https://extensions.gnome.org/ are broken. lots of from few versions back since no one is updating version requirement for each shell version due to totally flawed way of versioning. waiting for that would require whole new definition of patience. cinnamon at least gets it done every few months and then everything works.

          another thing about patience. did you notice that community is flocking from gtk, not to it? that starts to happen when you devalue external contributors and other projects and they lost every shred of patience where additional porting work is less of a nuisance than continuing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0 is a damn good example, but lately this migration is downright fashionable (LXDE, Wireshark...)

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          • #45
            I was thinking of whole distros with that

            Originally posted by Honton View Post
            Oh you just said Gnome was out of the question because they break extensions when Gnome get feature releases. You are more patient with cinnamon I see. You measure the software on different scales, that is a fallacy. You might not like Gnome, but this is not fair. If you can wait forever to get cinnamon updates, you can aso wait a few months to have the Gnome extensions get ready for new Gnome releases.
            I was thinking of, say, not only Ubuntu but the whole Linux infrastructure making some kind of change that made it impossible to run an unmantained Kdenlive or and unmantained Cinnamon. I would not switch to Lightworks, which requires activation with an account, just to be able to run a new libc or kernel. Lightworks is not open source and I don't trust closed binaries with sensitive files on an encrypted filesystem. I would not give up the old-style desktop under any circumstances. Anything that cannot be made compatable with Kdenlive or a similar FULL-FEATURED true FOSS video editor I can't use, and anything that would force me to change how I interact with my computers I don't want and will not use-no matter who says anything.

            Ask any computer salesman about getting people who really don't want a phone/tablet interface to buy Windows 8!

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            • #46
              hmm, this seems to finally clarify one of the things i bitched about http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2014/...s-in-gtk-3-12/

              gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.xsettings overrides "{'Gtk/DialogsUseHeader':<0>}"

              i wonder how long this will be supported, but my best bet is until exact moment when they realize almost everyone is using it

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