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Setting Up GNOME Is Easier With Version 3.12

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Honton View Post
    Yeah. Gnome3 (>3.6) will be the default desktops for SLE12 and RHEL7. If you don't like that, I think your strategy is very good. Rewrite everthing and go target Unity and Blackberries too! Please go ahead and do it now.
    lol, what a joke you are. but, let me bite on this one.

    now explain this.
    - your enterprise desktop will need some office software. do you seriously expect that LibreOffice folks will redefine extra Gnome UI (sorry, abiword and gnumeric are toys)? nope, they will target same UI to work on all OS platforms
    - your enterprise desktop will surely need Firefox or Chrome (sorry, epiphany doesn't cut it). will those 2 do extra Gnome UI? nope, they will target same UI to work on all OS platforms
    - there is wine, qt... and other apps that you need for enterprise desktop (calling it enterprise doesn't make it so). no cross platform app will ever adopt standard from almost non present DE to alienate >99% of possible buyers and making extra UI is simply too expensive. it's simply better to ignore that <1% and focus elsewhere. enterprise desktop is more than being done by enterprise company, it also means other enterprises are adopting it too

    now, how is this enterprise level of desktop when basics of use and feel change from app to app.and doing nothing but leave end user confused? so far you didn't make any compelling argument beside ignorance (kinda consistent with gnome devs)
    Last edited by justmy2cents; 03-18-2014, 03:39 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Honton View Post
      That is the problem right now. There is no common UX for desktop linux. And the last 15 years proved it was never meant to be. So everybody do what they find to be the best option. And I have no trouble pointing you in the direction of Ubuntu or Blackberries because I care about what I find to be the best option. Gnome is the only desktop offering design driven development, sane enterprise partners and a clear stance against CLA tyranny. The remaining desktops does not offer this.

      Does the Gnome app UX fit everyone?
      Does the Gnome app UX cover every need?
      Does the Gnome app UX offers any guideance for complicated apps?

      No. Not yet. But I can live with that for now, because I know the other desktops will fail.
      KDE, enlightenment... force you in CLA? @.@' since when? btw, enlightenment is probably furthest with your previously mentioned Wayland support

      not yet? lol, when then? in year 2946? and who will write gnome specific apps? you expect gnome will create all software? i know i surely won't and so won't any of my developer friends. it's the common rule of cross platform work. ignore deviations. now... here is a heart breaker. there are 3 stages in adoption of some interface in enterprise.
      - 1st are fans that promote it
      - 2nd are cross platform developers who don't need to write any extra code to support that UI
      - 3rd and last are companies who see enough buyers to make software exclusive, where 1% way too small to even come as one sentence consideration in plans

      btw, both KDE and enlightenment are better off surviving this race. enlightenment with tizen and KDE on the fact that you can make conforming cross platform apps with qt after latest alienation of desktop standards from gnome

      btw, don't mix what you like and what you don't if you talk about corporate enterprise level desktop. fact what i like and what i don't like don't matter to companies when deciding if they move to linux or not. they set up few test desktops and put users behind them. if there is too much whining or too many problems, they simply say "try again, this one doesn't work". and users tend to whine if everything is not as they expect it to be

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Honton View Post
        KDE forces you to use Qt which is CLA. enlightenment goes nowhere. I expect the Gnome app UX conversion to be done by 3.14. You might want to look up the 3.12 release changes if you want to count the amount of new or redesigned apps. Oh and do keep in mind that Yorba went to the house of Gnome too. They just added a new calendar app to their mail app, this is not 3.12 material though...
        https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointEleven/ReleaseNotes

        KDE haven't offered such a powerful release since years.
        what should i be impressed with? the fact they destroyed most apps with terrible design made by 3 monkeys on ego cool aid? gedit was one of my favorite text editors, still looking for replacement when i saw new design. web browser new design doesn't make any sense at all. nautilus is perfect example of how not to make desktop file manager. which one did i miss? if by calendar you mean this https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Apps/Calendar it looks most terrible of all where Windows 8 and elementary most resemble to slick and usable

        or should i be impressed by this maybe? yep, let's clutter everything
        http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2014/...configuration/
        or this? yep, hide and seek with confirmation buttons
        http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2014/...-with-the-new/

        KDE unlike gnome is keeping stable 4 and working on 5. any ground breaking changes in 4 would mean they started doing it wrong. maintain stable and work on next is only possible correct and sane process if you want to talk enterprise desktop
        Last edited by justmy2cents; 03-18-2014, 04:54 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Honton View Post
          KDE forces you to use Qt which is CLA.
          where in the world did you hear that? it is GPL/LGPL+commercial https://qt-project.org/products/licensing

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Honton View Post
            Wow. Are you unable to understand that Qt is CLA?
            wow. are you unable to understand that CLA is only required if you contribute to Qt which doesn't even touch developer who just develops with it? if project beside CLA requirement is also GPL/LGPL nothing stops you from forking and continuing if you disagree with how development goes. it's not pretty, yes i already said that. but, makes 0 difference for someone who doesn't hack on it. GPL/LGPL also enables anyone to fork it at any time

            Originally posted by Honton View Post
            Fact is that the Gnome developers do more work on wayland, weston and supporting libs than all the other DEs combined.
            so? cookie for them. that doesn't change one fact i said about gnome

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Honton View Post
              Well, then the new app UX is just not you. I feel different. After using the new app UX on Web for a few weeks, I can't go back to firefox. It feels wrong. And Gnome Terminal feels wrong too, because it still have the old UX.
              Iinstalled Gnome Web and can attest the UI is a fresh breath of air with the title back as url input. Firefox has a ability to change appearance with Gnome theme add-on, in combination of Omnibar, FxButton extensions to match Gnome Web look.
              Once Gnome theme for Firefox got updated to match the new UX, Firefox will be very similar.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
                so? cookie for them. that doesn't change one fact i said about gnome
                And you said a lot. Why spend all that time repeating your irritation with gnome shell? This is Linux, you are free to choose any environment you like, so why bitch over and over about something you don't use?

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                • #38
                  GNOME, Wayland-and Cinnamon

                  Originally posted by Honton View Post
                  That is not "support". Anyone can claim to be supporting Wayland. Full support happens when everything is ported and regressions are gone or obsoleted.

                  Gnome can claim the same level of support.
                  https://git.gnome.org/browse/gdm/com...4f4dfcb5414199

                  Fact is that the Gnome developers do more work on wayland, weston and supporting libs than all the other desktops combined.
                  Lately I've been hearing claims that new development on Cinnamon has stopped. Well, Cinnamon came from forking gnome-shell to stop extensions from breaking, then making the MGSE extensions a built-in part of the forked gnome-shell. OK, so Wayland will work well on GNOME in not too long, and MATE is getting ported to it. If Cinnamon gets abandoned, I will just have to try and learn enough about how it works to esentially port the Cinnamon changes to a Wayland-supporting version of GNOME. I've got a hell of a long way to go for that, I would have to learn enough Javascript to port the UI changes (which I assume are all in the Javascript elements) to the newer version of Shell with a hell of a lot of underlying changes. So far I've hacked on Frippery extensions a bit to make them work with alpha versions of GNOME before Cinnamon came out, but that's about it. Could be the only way I will ever have Cinnamon-Wayland is to write it myself.

                  If that beats me, I could pick a version of GNOME in which both Frippery and Wayland work, grab the source, fork it to a new name when compiled, and install it alongside with the Frippery extensions included by default. Frippery would need the ability to use a single panel on either top or bottom as a full task bar ported to it from Cinnamon, at that point I would have a rough workalike. Better if I could get the Cinnamon applet infrastructure working on it too, but being able to use gnome-shell extensions from a fixed and unchanging version would be enough.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
                    if you would check Phoronix history on fedora.next parts you would notice i used to promote exact same thinking as you do. then after seeing how bad gnome is getting with others and seeing fedora fosdem presentation, i went and started really digging. what i saw was enough to decide that fedora is not distro i want to stick with



                    indifferent????? @.@'
                    you mean like...
                    - using AppMenu insanity which is used nowhere else. idea works for OSX where it was copied from, gnome implementation on the other hand makes no sense at all since not one non-gnome app won't use it and gnome apps in different DE can't really expose it beside the fact doing that would make even less sense
                    - using non custom app grouping and ignoring default standard. bad excuse is that you can search it with shell, but sad reality is that it can't ever work on multilingual desktop
                    - using non standard dialog confirmation positioning, where they actually use 2 different standards that completely deviate from other ecosystem. is this some game where user should search how to confirm?
                    - using Chrome like menu button (which really makes sense there and it is implemented with thinking ahead) everywhere. but, unlike chrome they actually designed one of most unfriendly menu separations which reside on completely different sides of the screen beside the fact that it doesn't make any sense doing menu like that in most apps since all you get is cluttered nonsense
                    - using non standard notifications
                    - completely ignoring other DE. if DE for example relies on having title bars, gnome apps will simply be rectangular crap which completely falls out of picture
                    - 0 support on how other DE exposes some functions like running in tray and so on
                    - must i go further?

                    ok, here is my question to you. look at what you said... stronger focus on development. which tools will you use? and just how many different standards does that impose on you? that's not something i would call productive development environment if basics change in each software piece. even better question, how can one even support commercial desktop with such inconsistencies since typical user is anything but smart enough to go trough this "guess where"? how can you even develop cross platform app (yes, those are must if you want to see linux desktop to start gaining ground) and make it run sane in gnome without looking completely out of place? i already made one example in one of previous comments, now tell me how do you expect non-versed user will feel when conditioned to that

                    not to mention they are forcing people on touch like interface, where even MS realized this is a bad idea
                    There's some perfectly valid criticism in this post, hidden by your complete lack of ability to write coherently and are apparently angry that people like things you don't.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by psychoticmeow View Post
                      There's some perfectly valid criticism in this post, hidden by your complete lack of ability to write coherently and are apparently angry that people like things you don't.
                      english is not my native language. also, couldn't care less if i like it or not. if it was just about my desktop i can remove gnome and never look back like i did. problem is that those breaks completely broke infrastructure i support and i basically lost ground. it will not only take lots of work to move everything at clients to something else, it will also look dumb on my side for suggesting it in the first place.

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                      • #41
                        If gnome-shell extensions didn't break with every release, forks would not be needed

                        Originally posted by Honton View Post
                        Cinnamon was never about stopping breakage. It was way to make money. Fork, rename, reshuffle, blog4fame, keep doing releases until the sponsors go away. Cinnamon have entered the terminal phase now. chances are that Gnome-Shell will get reforked at 3.12. And that is the same thing happening with Wayland. Gnome and Red Hat hackers will make Wayland work AND add those new libs which will provide support for all those things from X that is not related to the rendering protocol. Once that is done others will get the Waland support. Not the other way around.

                        There is no need to fork more code. Frippery does fine, Gnome-shell does fine.
                        http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html
                        Since I treat Ubuntu alphas as a rolling "upstream" release, extension breakage was a major problem until Cinnamon came along. I hope they do refork from 3.12 to bring in Wayland support. If they do that, debug it, then "park" the code, that's good enough. IceWM hasn't had new development in many years but is still available and works damned well for low-resource machines like my netbook. No reason Cinnamon can be made to work well with Wayland, then parked with what is not broken not needing to be fixed.

                        Wayland will matter on big machines like I use when games and other demanding applications are ported to it or otherwise run faster than they do on X. Until then X will be superior for end users, but not after that point. If Cinnamon dies and I want a stable DE for my own use, I can do a private fork of either Cinnamon or g-s for my own use, worrying only about the featuures I use and ignoring all those I do not. Just changing gnome-shell's name at compile time would be enough to install it alongside vanilla GNOME for comparison while having Frippery/Cinnamon style extensions always work.

                        One shortcoming in Frippery is not including a traditional system tray. Extensions written by others that provide it come, die when g-s changes, then sometimes another comes into existance. Nobody can begin writing these until the GNOME changes for a generation are finalized, however! Cinnamon always has a traditional system tray, essential for running Volti's volume control when Pulseaudio is not being used.

                        A private, post-Cinnamon fork of g-s for my own use in a worst-case scenario would require a version of GNOME for which both Frippery and something like Topicons exist or for which I can port them over, and which supports Wayland. Once I have that working, I am free to install upstream GNOME alongside it and not worry about extensions always being broken in a DE used only for testing and not daily use. I would attempt to combine the bottom and top panels like in Cinnamon, would look at Cinnamon code for how to do that, but that will surely require figuring out more Javascript than I now know. If nobody else has a use for it, fine-I would be writing it to use in my own machines, then probably offering it to anyone else who wants it with no guarantees.

                        Hell, the whole OS in my machines is effectively a private fork and blend of both UbuntuStudio and Mint, but has diverged quite far from either one over the years.

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                        • #42
                          The GNOME official extensions are relatively simple

                          Originally posted by Honton View Post
                          Well, then they could just contribute the work to Gnome Shell 3.12.X, and provide those extensions on git.gnome.org. Just like the official extensions. For every Gnome-shell release there is a gnome-shell extension module release. Like this.
                          https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-s...e87c8888922ddc

                          Just have a look at the entire tree for the official extensions. The maintenance burden is really low. It is like 30 commits excluding translations and trivial release bits. Only af few of those are adaption to new GS code. Forking and reforking is not justified. The reason for Cinnamon doing this is because of branding and attracting sponsors.
                          For the most part, the GNOME official extensions are simple code, rather like the parts of Frippery that don't break when version checking is disabled and GNOME changes. Part of what led me to Cinnamon was a period where I could not port the older "classic systray" extension over and "topicons" wasn't out yet. Probably could have with some real javascript knowledge, this was just some very simple text hacking

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                          • #43
                            Why the personal attack?

                            Originally posted by Honton View Post
                            Not true at all. The official exensions are used in the the gnome-classic session. What the official extensions do right is to stay on Gnome infrastructure and co-release with Gnome-shell. I know where file bugs, browse code and get my source. This is not true for many other extensions AND cinnamon. We don't know if some of the Cinnamon patches or extensions would benefit uptream because the Cinnamon dude refuses to do upstream work. The now dead cinnamon stuff dies with author losing reason to continue.

                            Do you know that guy at work who never admit that he build his success on the shoulders of co-workers?
                            Do you know that guy at work who never helps co-workers despite he has solutions at hand?
                            Do you know that guy at work who takes credit for others work by changing the author name?
                            Do you know that guy at work who promises the clients too much and makes his co-workers take the blame when the pie in the sky falls to the ground?

                            This Cinnamon (re)forking4fame is the exact same thing. Fake forking is bitwise trolling.
                            Fame has nothing to do with making my OWN computer do what I want it to do. I need Kdenlive whether it is mantained or not, and I want to keep Cinnamon or something that works and looks like it, whether or not anyone else uses or mantains it. I would simply stop updating (permanently) if I have to give up Kdenlive or use an interface I don't like to do so.

                            Some of this is on the verge of personal attacks on me.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Honton View Post
                              Oh you just said Gnome was out of the question because they break extensions when Gnome get feature releases. You are more patient with cinnamon I see. You measure the software on different scales, that is a fallacy. You might not like Gnome, but this is not fair. If you can wait forever to get cinnamon updates, you can aso wait a few months to have the Gnome extensions get ready for new Gnome releases.
                              >50% of extensions on https://extensions.gnome.org/ are broken. lots of from few versions back since no one is updating version requirement for each shell version due to totally flawed way of versioning. waiting for that would require whole new definition of patience. cinnamon at least gets it done every few months and then everything works.

                              another thing about patience. did you notice that community is flocking from gtk, not to it? that starts to happen when you devalue external contributors and other projects and they lost every shred of patience where additional porting work is less of a nuisance than continuing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0 is a damn good example, but lately this migration is downright fashionable (LXDE, Wireshark...)

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                              • #45
                                I was thinking of whole distros with that

                                Originally posted by Honton View Post
                                Oh you just said Gnome was out of the question because they break extensions when Gnome get feature releases. You are more patient with cinnamon I see. You measure the software on different scales, that is a fallacy. You might not like Gnome, but this is not fair. If you can wait forever to get cinnamon updates, you can aso wait a few months to have the Gnome extensions get ready for new Gnome releases.
                                I was thinking of, say, not only Ubuntu but the whole Linux infrastructure making some kind of change that made it impossible to run an unmantained Kdenlive or and unmantained Cinnamon. I would not switch to Lightworks, which requires activation with an account, just to be able to run a new libc or kernel. Lightworks is not open source and I don't trust closed binaries with sensitive files on an encrypted filesystem. I would not give up the old-style desktop under any circumstances. Anything that cannot be made compatable with Kdenlive or a similar FULL-FEATURED true FOSS video editor I can't use, and anything that would force me to change how I interact with my computers I don't want and will not use-no matter who says anything.

                                Ask any computer salesman about getting people who really don't want a phone/tablet interface to buy Windows 8!

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