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  • #16
    That's okay

    Originally posted by AdamW View Post
    There used to be lots of other people who did this too. They decided to stop doing that. And somehow that makes us the bad guys?
    No, that's okay. It's also okay when you expect the Gnome devs to follow certain design principles when you pay them to do so (Hell, it's even part of the free software philosophy, to pay developers to do the job for you).
    From what I see here, though, RedHat's design principles focus too much on creating a shell around itself, thus meaning incompatibility with themes, unstable API and bloat.

    I won't accuse you of having a biased opinion on this topic, given you are a RedHat-employee and speak on behalf of your company, what I understand.
    Developing free software however includes more than just paying developers to do it, the community actually using the software should also be addressed.
    A prime example is the attempt to create a touch-desktop for Gnome. Hell, even Microsoft failed to force this upon their users!

    “Look after the customer and the business will take care of itself” – Ray Kroc, founder of McDonald’s

    Comment


    • #17
      Ad hominem

      Originally posted by AdamW View Post
      That's an insanely biased article which is based on taking the most apparently damaging words the author can find as far out of context as possible. Hardly a reliable resource.
      Nice how you try to attack this in fact very reliable source ad hominem.
      Dude, we could discuss the vocabulary, but it's not about that! It's about the content.
      Only because it's critical of your agenda, it doesn't mean it is an unreliable source. Is every RedHat-developer like you a reliable source on the other hand, given he supports it?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lelele View Post
        What things should I know before I ride the Anti-Gnome3 hate train?

        Though the try-exec thing is pretty cool. One thing I missed from windows. A pain to launch incognito from the launchers. I resorted to using super secret keybinds. Is there anyway to that in dock apps? Are these available in other desktop panels like xfce-panels?
        that's easy.
        - they know how you want to use your computer, you don't... Gnome mantra in version 3
        - cross platform... doesn't matter. if you try and follow their guidelines... ET put naked in strip joint won't be as obvious alien as your software on non-gnome and vice versa

        i was absolute fan until 3.4 or 3.6. i doubt i used other DE from 0.11 times more than 30 hours. at that point whole thing started breaking, while now it's downright bordering on stupid. in fact you learn to not get excited about cool feature being added, it'll be removed in next and replaced with most stupid possible in 2 versions after

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          So, back about five years ago, Red Hat paid a bunch of GNOME developers. So did SUSE. So did Sun. So did a few other companies. Smaller companies paid one or two here and there - Mandriva had fcrozat, there were various others.

          These days, Red Hat stills pays its GNOME devs, plus a few more as budgets allow. All the other companies cut their budgets and stopped paying GNOME devs.

          So, now people say GNOME is 'owned by Red Hat', even though Red Hat doesn't do anything different than it's ever done. We pay some GNOME developers' paychecks. There used to be lots of other people who did this too. They decided to stop doing that. And somehow that makes us the bad guys?

          (note: this is simplified - the 'Red Hat owns GNOME' meme isn't even really true as far as it goes, there are still plenty of people working on GNOME who aren't paid by RH. but insofar as it's "true" that RH pays more GNOME devs proportionally than it used to, the reason is as above: other companies don't do it as much as they used to. Are we supposed to fire people until we're 'back in proportion'?)
          1st off, i have all respect for RH. Hats off *pun intended. although, i moved to korora cinnamon just to avoid gnome lately. right now, i'm starting to question wheter i'll need more progressive move since i don't know how @.@' NEW @.@' design will work in cinnamon http://worldofgnome.org/gedit-3-12-migrates-to-hig-3/ . perhaps i'll gave it a go one round and then switch if i see too much work is needed. but, sure as hell won't lose a minute

          as far as firing... yea, if you pay most uncommunicative knowitalls community has ever known as gnome devs are, that will just backfire on RH in the long run. if you look at gnome listening to their users track record, you should see it is THE single most broken record which does nothing but puts RH in bad spotlight as *they are responsible for this*, since they are only ones officially backing gnome (i don't think that, but it is message that is being conveyed). so, firing or redelegating those paid developers to other projects might be healthy/good idea

          just few examples
          - if linuxconf actually has a session http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux...rk_Hohndel.mp4 what does this convey? i seriously doubt they would put it out if there wasn't something really wrong.
          - look how many gnome users scream they don't wan't computer work like phone. there are lots of reasons why phone interface is like it is, touch interface and small screen estate maybe?
          - gnome3 mantra... users don't know how they want to use computer, we do. ever tried to speak to gnome developer why not do something? "lalalala, can't hear ya". it doesn't matter how many real world examples you use, you don't get rebuttal, you get to feel stupid like you were speaking to the wall
          ... i could go on and on

          btw, in defense of RH. RH also pays some KDE devs AFAIK, it's just that message is hidden, since KDE devs seem to be way more concerned with their users than with their ego and you don't get public demonstrations which would require any accusations

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
            - if linuxconf actually has a session http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux...rk_Hohndel.mp4 what does this convey? i seriously doubt they would put it out if there wasn't something really wrong.
            I am a GNOME fan, and prefer the look of GTK over Qt. I would probably still use Qt over GTK if I wanted cross platform functionality. I don't think this says much at all.

            - look how many gnome users scream they don't wan't computer work like phone. there are lots of reasons why phone interface is like it is, touch interface and small screen estate maybe?
            Which is strange, as G3 is really not a phone interface at all. Some elements have changed to be more touch-friendly, but it is very much optimized for keyboard and mouse.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by frign View Post

              I won't accuse you of having a biased opinion on this topic, given you are a RedHat-employee and speak on behalf of your company, what I understand.
              Developing free software however includes more than just paying developers to do it, the community actually using the software should also be addressed.

              “Look after the customer and the business will take care of itself” – Ray Kroc, founder of McDonald’s
              Those who do not pay any money for anything have no right to demand that their needs be met.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                I am a GNOME fan, and prefer the look of GTK over Qt. I would probably still use Qt over GTK if I wanted cross platform functionality. I don't think this says much at all.
                two reasons, i hate C++ and i do make applications with history from gtk pre-2. while this used to be easy and clean process, it has become fscking nightmare from gnome 3.4 or 3.6 forward (maybe there was too much faith from my side, but i actually suggested moving on RHEL7 from windows (100+ machines), while using fedora in that time to track changes. RHEL7 as being 1st stable gnome-shell distro in times when gnome-shell still made sense). in your words, i should port all apps to Qt and switch all gnome desktops i admin to KDE? i can imagine my self doing that, yea. if anything i would simply suggest to move back to windows and that's it. i actually have less problems running my gtk apps on windows than on gnome on each new version of fedora. not one single windows user ever complained even though i took some different interface turns than normal windows app

                Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                Which is strange, as G3 is really not a phone interface at all. Some elements have changed to be more touch-friendly, but it is very much optimized for keyboard and mouse.
                obviously, you never tried multilingual setup. if you did, you would know what nonsense you just said. reasoning from gnome devels is that that is application bug since it was not translated.
                not to mention... how is sticking menus to completely opposite sides of screen mouse friendly?
                how is having F10 and <Popup>+F10 for different menus keyboard friendly?
                how is sticking AppGroup with all other clusterfuck of icons gnome throws at you... user friendly? not to mention showing popup for that? brilliant idea, NOT!!!!
                not to mention complete interface breaking revamp (clientside decorations and menus) in 3.x release? @.@' what does that say? to me it is "we have no fscking clue, but it looks cool"

                and yea, i got personal beef with gnome and its development. so, you can say i'm biased. i would have 0 beef if they kept 3 as it is and work on next gen 4. at least it would be easy to explain why interface changed so much
                Last edited by justmy2cents; 02-07-2014, 12:37 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                  "We are always looking for new design contributors, so please get in touch if you want to help" -- https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/
                  So, what's stopping you?
                  Of yes, they say the right things on the gnome pages but the making lists, and past interactions I've read, tell a different story.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by frign View Post
                    No, that's okay. It's also okay when you expect the Gnome devs to follow certain design principles when you pay them to do so (Hell, it's even part of the free software philosophy, to pay developers to do the job for you).
                    From what I see here, though, RedHat's design principles focus too much on creating a shell around itself, thus meaning incompatibility with themes, unstable API and bloat.

                    I won't accuse you of having a biased opinion on this topic, given you are a RedHat-employee and speak on behalf of your company, what I understand.
                    Developing free software however includes more than just paying developers to do it, the community actually using the software should also be addressed.
                    A prime example is the attempt to create a touch-desktop for Gnome. Hell, even Microsoft failed to force this upon their users!

                    “Look after the customer and the business will take care of itself” – Ray Kroc, founder of McDonald’s
                    OK, you're not getting this. RED HAT ISN'T DICTATING ANYTHING TO GNOME DEVELOPERS. They keep the small number of devs as a price of doing business and to act as both maintainers and developers for their, relatively, small desktop contracts.
                    I can tell you that red hat designers, and ux folks, don't necessarily think gnome is well designed.
                    Don't blame rh, the blame is solely on McCann and jakub for the design as it currently stands.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
                      two reasons, i hate C++ and i do make applications with history from gtk pre-2. while this used to be easy and clean process, it has become fscking nightmare from gnome 3.4 or 3.6 forward (maybe there was too much faith from my side, but i actually suggested moving on RHEL7 from windows (100+ machines), while using fedora in that time to track changes. RHEL7 as being 1st stable gnome-shell distro in times when gnome-shell still made sense). in your words, i should port all apps to Qt and switch all gnome desktops i admin to KDE? i can imagine my self doing that, yea. if anything i would simply suggest to move back to windows and that's it. i actually have less problems running my gtk apps on windows than on gnome on each new version of fedora. not one single windows user ever complained even though i took some different interface turns than normal windows app
                      Uhm, I am not sure exactly what you are saying here. Looking at proprietary cross-platform applications, most seem to go with Qt over Gtk. I still much prefer Gtk. That is all.


                      obviously, you never tried multilingual setup. if you did, you would know what nonsense you just said. reasoning from gnome devels is that that is application bug since it was not translated.
                      not to mention... how is sticking menus to completely opposite sides of screen mouse friendly?
                      how is having F10 and <Popup>+F10 for different menus keyboard friendly?
                      how is sticking AppGroup with all other clusterfuck of icons gnome throws at you... user friendly? not to mention showing popup for that? brilliant idea, NOT!!!!
                      not to mention complete interface breaking revamp (clientside decorations and menus) in 3.x release? @.@' what does that say? to me it is "we have no fscking clue, but it looks cool"
                      I seriously have no idea what you are trying to say here either.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by liam View Post
                        Of yes, they say the right things on the gnome pages but the making lists, and past interactions I've read, tell a different story.
                        So no first hand experience?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                          Those who do not pay any money for anything have no right to demand that their needs be met.
                          Sonadow, we're not living in a corporate environment here. If RedHat really is as user-friendly as it claims to be, it should definitely listen more to their users rather than forcing a certain model onto them.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by liam View Post
                            OK, you're not getting this. RED HAT ISN'T DICTATING ANYTHING TO GNOME DEVELOPERS. They keep the small number of devs as a price of doing business and to act as both maintainers and developers for their, relatively, small desktop contracts.
                            I can tell you that red hat designers, and ux folks, don't necessarily think gnome is well designed.
                            Don't blame rh, the blame is solely on McCann and jakub for the design as it currently stands.
                            Thanks for clearing that up, but isn't it confusing? RedHat pays a bunch of developers, I read a lot of stuff on "corporate identity" in their MLs. How much is Gnome influenced by RedHat and how much is it based on a few individuals like MkCann and jakub?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by frign View Post
                              Thanks for clearing that up, but isn't it confusing? RedHat pays a bunch of developers, I read a lot of stuff on "corporate identity" in their MLs. How much is Gnome influenced by RedHat and how much is it based on a few individuals like MkCann and jakub?
                              It's ok if you have an opinion, but please do your own research. Quit calling ad hominem on nothing. Wtf are you talking about with corporate identify? GNOME is not a company, it is a project. Adam explained a few things to you already. Sitting by the sidelines while knowing shit all and talking trash is all you've shown up to now. And to repeat: if a blog takes quotes totally out of context, you're a troll for responding with "ad hominem" and saying it is respectable. Time to sod off.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                7|?0!!5

                                Originally posted by bkor View Post
                                It's ok if you have an opinion, but please do your own research. Quit calling ad hominem on nothing. Wtf are you talking about with corporate identify? GNOME is not a company, it is a project. Adam explained a few things to you already. Sitting by the sidelines while knowing shit all and talking trash is all you've shown up to now. And to repeat: if a blog takes quotes totally out of context, you're a troll for responding with "ad hominem" and saying it is respectable. Time to sod off.
                                Dude, what's your problem?

                                I especially criticized the Gnome-devs for talking about the corporate identity. And if you don't understand what an ad-hominem-argument is, you should sod off yourself, dude. And you got that right: Gnome IS a project, that's the point! We are discussing the corporate influence here, and when Gnome-devs start talking about a corporate identity, then this is something to criticize. Congratulations for finding that out!

                                Gnome really isn't a topic I enjoy talking about. We have a company _or_ a few individuals who messed things up badly and now we have a piece of shit which is unusable for many.
                                So please excuse me as I go back to work on software which sucks less while you kids find out who's fault it is now (great point of discussion!).

                                Have a nice day.

                                Comment

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