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  • #46
    Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Cinnamon itself only consists of a window manager (Muffin) and the shell. Both built around libmutter and using Clutter. GTK is not used in Cinnamon itself. One may use GTK applications under Cinnamon but that does make Cinnamon as much GTK based as KDE Plasma Desktop is GTK-based when running a GTK application.
    Ok then. Go install Linux Mint (or any other Cinnamon-using distro) and completely remove all the GTK libraries. Let me know how it goes.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      Methinks you protest too much or whatever. Go on to the mozilla page, download and install firefox, run it, it uses GTK. That counts as a GTK application in my book, no matter what other unmaintained frontends there may or may not have existed. IIRC there was once a fork of GIMP that used Qt/KDE instead of GTK, which is no longer maintained, but that doesn't make GIMP any less a GTK application.
      You do understand that there is a very big difference between the GIMP which is completely built around the GIMP Toolkit and Firefox, which uses a custom toolkit and just uses GTK to paint the widget, right?

      Same is true for OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Custom, in-house toolkit, only the painting part was replaced with calls to GTK because it was ugly anyway.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        Ok then. Go install Linux Mint (or any other Cinnamon-using distro) and completely remove all the GTK libraries. Let me know how it goes.
        That will probably fail due to linking in Mint packages.

        It should be possible if you build Cinnamon from source and use it to launch Qt apps. Cinnamon itself is not based on GTK, AFAIK.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
          When you say KDE you are really talking about a lot of apps, and a lot of them are much better IMO than the gtk counterparts. There's Google Earth, Autodesk Maya, QTiplot, Mathematica, Guitar Pro, Sony Reader, etc... there is a lot of professional and commercial Qt apps out there (some of those are in the Apple App Store too) that don't mention the toolkit used, since that's kind of irrelevant, and that make use of the commercial license. Either way that's not the point, Qt is just superior.

          Gnome has failed, because due discontent three forks had been created, Mate, Cinnamon and Unity shell, giving you 5 gnomes since you have to add gnome shell and gnome 2 too. Awful! A lot of users migrated to other desktops. The gnome situation is not a very happy one.

          IMO, the only usable and decent DE for linux are KDE, Unity and XFCE. But XFCE is built on a dead toolkit, gtk2 and is a niche project . Unity is being rewritten in QT/QML. Cinnamon is not going to have a bright future as long it keeps relying on gnome, a gnome project that doesn't care at all about cinnamon .
          I couldn't really give a rat's ass about apple app store or any other DRM-riddled shithole like it. I couldn't also give a crap about closed-source proprietary products on windows or mac that use Qt. The point is, there's plenty of GTK apps that don't have any viable alternative in Qt (and no, proprietary, closed windows crap doesn't count as viable). Inkscape for one - where are the Qt-based free, open source vector graphics editors? GIMP is another, actually - before you say Krita, I use it a lot and I love it, but it has a totally different function than GIMP and isn't meant for the same tasks. And so on.

          Fanboyism isn't often a useful attitude to have. It produces myopic vision. If you think Qt/KDE is the best thing since sliced bread, that's fine, you can keep on using them and purging your system from all GTK apps. But it gets kind of silly when you start waging some kind of holy crusade against other TOOLKITS because you think your favorite one is "superior" for some reason...

          Also funny that you should say that Cinnamon doesn't have a bright future. What qualifies you to make that assessment? Cinnamon just keeps growing and getting better each release, and gaining more popularity and users.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
            Before anybody believes this lame troll:
            Qt is licensed under LGPL 2.1 and GPL 3 and when somebody tries to kill it, the entire Qt project becomes BSD-licensed.
            Before you call me lame troll, at least read licensing!
            Qt is licensed LGPL(which nullifies GPL restrictions, lesser path used), BUT contributions require CLA, which in turn nullifies LGPL on any condition. Qt does not become BSD-licensed, it will become EULA licensed with all other licenses stripped.
            This is possible scenario! Currently it allows Dignia to use all contributions and ignoring any GPL produce proprietary code, which we hope is used for self-funding of Qt. However, this vector is easily exploitable for immediate license change.
            I didn't tell Qt is bad, I told only its license contains expoit!

            Originally posted by bwat47 View Post
            Ms isn't going to come "kill" QT, please don't spread FUD.
            Learn to distinguish between FUD and opinion. MS builds on top of JS/HTML5, so its possible!
            Last edited by brosis; 04-26-2013, 07:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
              You do understand that there is a very big difference between the GIMP which is completely built around the GIMP Toolkit and Firefox, which uses a custom toolkit and just uses GTK to paint the widget, right?

              Same is true for OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Custom, in-house toolkit, only the painting part was replaced with calls to GTK because it was ugly anyway.
              I don't know, seems like splitting hairs to me. It uses GTK to draw the stuff on the screen, doesn't really matter what happens under the hood.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Before you call me lame troll, at least read licensing!
                Qt is licensed LGPL(which nullifies GPL restrictions, lesser path used), BUT contributions require CLA, which in turn nullifies LGPL on any condition. Qt does not become BSD-licensed, it will become EULA licensed with all other licenses stripped.
                This is possible scenario! Currently it allows Dignia to use all contributions and ignoring any GPL produce proprietary code, which we hope is used for self-funding of Qt. However, this vector is easily exploitable for immediate license change.
                I didn't tell Qt is bad, I told only its license contains expoit!


                Learn to distinguish between FUD and opinion. MS builds on top of JS/HTML5, so its possible!
                Despite the CLA Qt can not be closed off (Diga could try, but KDE would sink Diga's business model)
                http://www.kde.org/community/whatisk...foundation.php

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by dee. View Post
                  Inkscape for one - where are the Qt-based free, open source vector graphics editors?
                  Karbon, Krita sister app. I prefer Qt apps, but I still prefer Inkscape over it, they are both quite similar. Both of them have been dead as of late. They both work, implement SVG (and ODF for Karbon) and allow edition. Both Qt and Cairo (not really GTK, but close enough) implement SVG just fine (under the hood). Qt have an edge over Inkscape on this because inkscape is older and still have a lot of pre-cairo SVG legacy code. Tiled redering and scalable performance is not in a release yet.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by brosis View Post
                    Before you call me lame troll, at least read licensing!
                    Qt is licensed LGPL(which nullifies GPL restrictions, lesser path used), BUT contributions require CLA, which in turn nullifies LGPL on any condition. Qt does not become BSD-licensed, it will become EULA licensed with all other licenses stripped.
                    This is possible scenario! Currently it allows Dignia to use all contributions and ignoring any GPL produce proprietary code, which we hope is used for self-funding of Qt. However, this vector is easily exploitable for immediate license change.
                    I didn't tell Qt is bad, I told only its license contains expoit!
                    Those exploits are covered by: http://www.kde.org/community/whatisk...foundation.php

                    Here's the short version. If Digia (not Dignia) OR whoever is the current owner of the Qt Project (This clause gets moved around with the project itself) EVER stops releasing the LGPL version of Qt in a timely manner there is a legally binding contract between them that states the most recent version of the closed source Qt program is handed over to KDE, with copyright assigned to KDE, under the BSD license. Digia's (or whoever owns Qt at the time) entire business model of SELLING Qt would immediately be destroyed because anyone could take and do anything with the latest Qt.

                    The license contained loopholes. Those loopholes were spotted. Those loopholes were fixed with this agreement. End of story.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by dee. View Post
                      I couldn't really give a rat's ass about apple app store or any other DRM-riddled shithole like it. I couldn't also give a crap about closed-source proprietary products on windows or mac that use Qt. The point is, there's plenty of GTK apps that don't have any viable alternative in Qt (and no, proprietary, closed windows crap doesn't count as viable). Inkscape for one - where are the Qt-based free, open source vector graphics editors? GIMP is another, actually - before you say Krita, I use it a lot and I love it, but it has a totally different function than GIMP and isn't meant for the same tasks. And so on.

                      Fanboyism isn't often a useful attitude to have. It produces myopic vision. If you think Qt/KDE is the best thing since sliced bread, that's fine, you can keep on using them and purging your system from all GTK apps. But it gets kind of silly when you start waging some kind of holy crusade against other TOOLKITS because you think your favorite one is "superior" for some reason...

                      Also funny that you should say that Cinnamon doesn't have a bright future. What qualifies you to make that assessment? Cinnamon just keeps growing and getting better each release, and gaining more popularity and users.
                      Well!, GIMP use its own toolkit, it is called gtk. And yea is the best free image manipulator and i love it . But for most imaging retouching tasks is more than enough to use qwenview or Digikam which have advanced photo manipulation capabilities. For almost any gtk app there's a QT/KDE equivalent that is viable or even better . Inkscape is an exception ,and i don't count karbon as a viable alternative. Besides , i don't see how a gtk app could be ported to embedded, mobile or tablet devices. Even gtk apps are awful in MacOS and Windows. Is portable but is not a good for that. Qt is much better for that.

                      By the way, for some people, Gimp is not an option to Photoshop or even Adobe Photoshop Elements ( which i think use QT too).

                      I don't mix politics with technology and i do think that QT is more polished and technologically more advanced , is a real object oriented framework . GTK is ... nah

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        What does Mate being a fork of Gnome have to do with anything? Lots of things are forks of other things, that doesn't necessarily make them any less valid things.
                        You initially claimed that ďno one is really interested in portingĒ GTK applications away from GTK to Qt. This story proves you wrong, the PCManFM port to Qt proves you wrong, the VLC Qt port proves you wrong, the Maemo 5->6 port proves you wrong, etc.

                        Maybe I'm missing something but was there ever a port the other way around, i.e. a Qt application ported to GTK?

                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        Skype, VLC etc. are not desktop environments.
                        So? You were talking about applications, not DEs alone. And by after reading through LXDE blog posts, it looks like LXDE will never be ported to GTK3. The LXDE maintainer (PCMan) wrote that it's easier to port a GTK2 application to Qt than to port it to GTK3 and the first component has already been ported to Qt.


                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        If we go on to consider all types of applications, then there are still tons of GTK apps, many of which still don't have any Qt-based equivalents, nor is anyone really interested in porting them to Qt. GIMP, Inkscape, Transmission, GParted, Firefox, just to name a few.
                        Last I checked there was a Qt version of Transmission, just as there are Qt front-ends to GNU Parted. AFAIK a Qt version of Firefox also exists, even though it's not the official one.


                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        Ok then. Go install Linux Mint (or any other Cinnamon-using distro) and completely remove all the GTK libraries. Let me know how it goes.
                        I don't care for broken packaging. Cinnamon itself is written using Clutter. Clutter, while these days developed within the GNOME ecosystem, is a toolkit entirely separate of GTK.

                        Qt has always been the superior technology. GTK was always mainly used for licensing reasons. Initially because Qt itself was under a non-free license and later ironically because Qtís free version was under GPL and therefore GTK was more interesting for proprietary software vendors (mainly Adobe).

                        Originally posted by brosis View Post
                        Before you call me lame troll, at least read licensing!
                        Qt is licensed LGPL(which nullifies GPL restrictions, lesser path used), BUT contributions require CLA, which in turn nullifies LGPL on any condition.
                        I actually read the entire texts of GPLv2, GPLv3, LGPLv2.1, LGPLv3, various other FOSS licenses, Qtís CLA, and the entire contract of the KDE Free Qt Foundation! So STFU! I'm no fan at all of CLAs but Qtís freedom is guarantied (unlike Canonicalís projects which have no condition similar to the KDE Free Qt Foundation contract).

                        The Qt code base is modularized. Don't want to sign the CLA? Easy: Just develop a new module outside of the official Qt infrastructure. QtWebKit is developed that way (source hosted on webkit.org), Canonicalís Mir adaptation (hosted on launchpad.net), and the entire KDE Frameworks (kde.org) Ė just to name a handful of examples.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Elv13 View Post
                          Karbon, Krita sister app. I prefer Qt apps, but I still prefer Inkscape over it, they are both quite similar. Both of them have been dead as of late. They both work, implement SVG (and ODF for Karbon) and allow edition. Both Qt and Cairo (not really GTK, but close enough) implement SVG just fine (under the hood). Qt have an edge over Inkscape on this because inkscape is older and still have a lot of pre-cairo SVG legacy code. Tiled redering and scalable performance is not in a release yet.
                          Excuse me - both of which have been dead as of late? Karbon and Krita? No, Krita is definitely the exact opposite, only gaining momentum. Karbon and Inkscape? Nope, Inkscape development is going on full steam. Getting new features constantly. What exactly are you talking about???

                          Anyway - yeah, I don't think Karbon is comparable to Inkscape.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                            Well!, GIMP use its own toolkit, it is called gtk. And yea is the best free image manipulator and i love it . But for most imaging retouching tasks is more than enough to use qwenview or Digikam which have advanced photo manipulation capabilities.
                            Yeah, doesn't matter. Wasn't the point. When you need to do some serious image editing, you need GIMP. When you need to do some serious drawing/painting, you need Krita. When you need to do sketching on an infinite canvas, you need MyPaint (another GTK program). Every software has its own function, and you can't just replace them however you want. So far, there isn't a viable alternative to GIMP that would be Qt-based AND would fulfill all the functions of GIMP that people use it for.

                            For almost any gtk app there's a QT/KDE equivalent that is viable or even better .
                            Incorrect.

                            Besides , i don't see how a gtk app could be ported to embedded, mobile or tablet devices.
                            Does Maemo ring a bell?

                            Even gtk apps are awful in MacOS and Windows. Is portable but is not a good for that. Qt is much better for that.
                            GIMP, Mypaint and Inkscape work fine in windows and macos. Whereas the windows port of Krita is buggy and unstable as hell. It's not about the toolkit, it's the available resources, and having people on the team who know the crazy quirks of windows/macos.

                            By the way, for some people, Gimp is not an option to Photoshop or even Adobe Photoshop Elements ( which i think use QT too).
                            PSE is such a crappy, stripped, dumbed down piece of crap that it literally has less features than GIMP. There is NOTHING you can do in PSE that you couldn't do better in GIMP.

                            When it comes to PS, there are some few niche functions that you may need to use it for, but those are getting less and less with each new GIMP release.

                            I don't mix politics with technology and i do think that QT is more polished and technologically more advanced , is a real object oriented framework . GTK is ... nah
                            You obviously don't know the meaning of the term "object oriented". GTK uses GObject, a type system that is object-based in nature and supports OOP just fine. Qt uses C++ which is a horrible abomination of a language.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              You do understand that there is a very big difference between the GIMP which is completely built around the GIMP Toolkit and Firefox, which uses a custom toolkit and just uses GTK to paint the widget, right?

                              Same is true for OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Custom, in-house toolkit, only the painting part was replaced with calls to GTK because it was ugly anyway.
                              Indeed. Try using a dark theme with Firefox or LibreOffice... It will end up using black text on a black background. Yeah... Thankfully, there are workarounds for that, but they disconnect the local theme from those programs entirely, which makes them look bad (albeit at least usable).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                Does Maemo ring a bell?
                                You're talking about the dead phone OS, right?

                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                GIMP, Mypaint and Inkscape work fine in windows and macos. Whereas the windows port of Krita is buggy and unstable as hell. It's not about the toolkit, it's the available resources, and having people on the team who know the crazy quirks of windows/macos.
                                Not sure about GIMP, but both Inkscape and MyPaint run on a rootless X11 server on MacOS because
                                the native Quartz backend is too unreliable.

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