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Linux Audio Editing Is Better With Ardour 3.0

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ninez View Post
    give examples? (specific VSTs).
    http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29628

    The problem with _some_ vsts isthat they implement things which Wine does not, which tend to be the one's that don't work at all. imho, it is better to focus on the one's that 'almost work', maybe just have a few rough edges that can be fixed. So i am not surprised that one's that just crash wine badly don't get looked at... although, i must say ~ i have never found one that crashes wine ~ although i have obviously seen many that crash/don't run... although, these days more and more seem to run well.

    sometimes, software in Wine will crash just because you haven't installed XYZ dll or have an 'override' that you shouldn't (or vice versa) too.
    Hopefully, one day, all major VSTs will provide Linux versions. Until then, running them in Linux is such a major PITA that most people just don't bother. It took me days to set up Reaper under Linux in a manner that works, JACK+Wineasio being incredibly complicated to get working (and Wineasio not working at all now since I was forced to upgrade glibc, so back to Windows 7 now), and Wine making your hair fall out with nothing running in it out-of-the-box. It would be quite a bit easier if Wine would provide ASIO support on its own though.

    Windows and OS X will reign supreme for a while yet.
    Last edited by RealNC; 03-14-2013, 04:35 PM.

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    • #17
      that app does not crash wine ~ but yeah, that is an example of a VST that does not work. (not with WineASIO/SAVIhost, not FSTHost).

      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      Hopefully, one day, all major VSTs will provide Linux versions. Until then, running them in Linux is such a major PITA that most people just don't bother. It took me days to set up Reaper under Linux in a manner that works, JACK+Wineasio being incredibly complicated to get working (and Wineasio not working at all now since I was forced to upgrade glibc, so back to Windows 7 now), and Wine making your hair fall out with nothing running in it out-of-the-box. It would be quite a bit easier if Wine would provide ASIO support on its own though.
      I think you are exaggerating on setting up reaper. It took me all of about 10-15 minutes to setup reaper, having never used it before. All that it required was using the wine-rt patch (well, variables provided by wine-rt on startup), plus a little tinkering in the settings dialog.

      Regarding WineASIO / jack complexity (?). In my experience, wineASIO support is not hard to setup. the only annoyance is having to get asio.h, which is required to compile. After that, it is simply a matter of compiling wineASIO and registering the driver in wine. - applications that support ASIO (with a few exceptions) will work just fine, without any additional effort. If a glibc update broke wineASIO ~ then why didn't you just recompile it to fix the issue?

      Also, don't expect official support for ASIO in Wine anytime soon, or ever ~ ASIO is not apart of windows and is proprietary, made by a 3rd party, wine-devs wouldn't add it to wine for that reason, alone.

      As far as wine goes. You should have been using wine-l-pa over upstream wine ~ since it supports MANY more VSTs than upstream wine, has critical bug-fixes for native instruments plugins, patchwork that fixes a lot of the problems associated with the 'wineserver bottleneck' and other performance issues, plus other goodies.

      now as far as OOTB support in Wine. If you are not relying on wineASIO (which i don't. i typically use FSTHost since wineASIO only gives you alsa-midi.). then really, you should just need to run winetricks and install; vbXrun (install all of them), vcrun2xxx (install all of them, or all that you can), mfcXX (both), richedXX and msxml3/4 ... Aside from that, it is always good to install 'all fonts' in wine.

      FSThost: http://sourceforge.net/projects/fsthost/

      the very latest git/svn supports wine-l-pa and has a slew of improvements not officially released yet. there is also a gtk_toolbar branch ~ which i have helped work on / i figured out the gtk.socket alignment issues, helped test the resize/WM code issues/fixes and worked on some of the icons + other bits with the developer. FSThost doesn't require the VST SDK headers or anything like that. It supports jack-midi, jack_session, has a a lot of other useful features, etc...

      I agree that things won't be ideal until the bigger VST vendors support linux directly, but who knows when that'll happen. imho FSThost + wine-l-pa is probably your best bet for solid windows VST support / performance - but obviously, that is incompatible with using Reaper. ~ that being said; wine-l-pa does fix some performance issues with Reaper.

      wine-l-pa: http://sourceforge.net/projects/l-proaudio/
      wine-l-pa in AUR: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/wine-l-pa/

      (i only use Archlinux, so don't directly support any other distribution).
      Last edited by ninez; 03-14-2013, 05:35 PM.

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      • #18
        You do realize that just using Windows is much easier that even reading that wall of technical text you wrote, right? wine-pa? Never heard of it. Arch Linux only? I don't use that. And I'm not gonna abandon my favorite Linux distro.

        In fact, you just proved my point: it's insanely complicated to set up. I'll even have to boot a custom kernel? That's just like rebooting into Windows, if I'm gonna reboot anyway. I'm happy for you that you're able to do that in 15 minutes. For me, it takes much longer, and three weeks later something breaks. This cannot possibly be regarded as an alternative to just use it in Windows.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          You do realize that just using Windows is much easier that even reading that wall of technical text you wrote, right? wine-pa? Never heard of it. Arch Linux only? I don't use that. And I'm not gonna abandon my favorite Linux distro.
          I didn't say using windows wasn't easier, did i? Wine-l-pa is a fork (more like patchset for wine) that makes wine more usable for proaudio / linux-rt. Part of the patchset comes from Code Weavers / Muse Research (ie: the version of wine used in the Muse Receptor). As for it being Archlinux only - it's not... I just don't package it for XYZ distro because i don't use those distros ~ so i was not saying you should switch distros, I'm just pointing out that i (as the person who maintains wine-l-pa) do not package it for any other distro. ~ which considering that this is a project i work on in my spare time, probably shouldn't be an expectation, anyway

          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          In fact, you just proved my point: it's insanely complicated to set up. I'll even have to boot a custom kernel? That's just like rebooting into Windows, if I'm gonna reboot anyway. I'm happy for you that you're able to do that in 15 minutes. For me, it takes much longer, and three weeks later something breaks. This cannot possibly be regarded as an alternative to just use it in Windows.
          No, custom-kernel is optional - but has some benefits, such as fixing EXT4 latency issues, optional compiler optimizations, etc ... + for best performance @ lowest latency an RT-kernel is best anyway. As far as complexity, when packaged, installing wine-l-pa should be nothing more than installing any other app. same goes for FSThost. (in Archlinux' case 'yaourt -S wine-l-pa fsthost' + running winetricks once.... that's NOT complicated).

          but obviously, if you can't adjust an apps settings to work properly in under three weeks (more like an hour tops!), then obviously, you should be using Windows ~ so i agree.

          In my case, it's not an alternative to using windows ~ i use my VSTs in dedicated H/W + am not a windows user at all. but i totally understand where you are coming from.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by glxextxexlg View Post
            It has been over a year since development work for 3.0 version started.
            No, it was originally expected to be released around 2009 after already being years into development. Ardour 3 was the Duke Nukem Forever of audio software.

            Originally posted by glxextxexlg View Post
            btw if this release opens the way to a native reaper release for linux then ardour will fulfill its duty.
            No, Reaper on Linux will be a fail. They've realized that WINE sucks, so they're hoping some generous developer will come fix their "native" Linux port, which in fact just wraps Windows system calls as Linux system calls. They don't even care enough to do the works themselves, I guarantee you that it will never amount to anything.

            Originally posted by glxextxexlg View Post
            who cares about paul's monthly income from ardour being hardly enough to keep him developing and mindless zealots that follow him (while the development is soo slow?) development of ardour is slow because paul davis has set up a system that every donation or subscription is paid directly to him and not distributed among developers fairly. as a result no clever developer helps him finish the job only mindless zealots do
            x1000. What other project brings in so much money in donations, while the lead developer publicly cries about how it's not enough and how development may not be able to continue. Did he ever stop to think that Ardour isn't worth paying for? Harrison Consoles "borrows" Ardour's source code and adds their DSP to make Harrison Mixbus for Window,s Linux and Mac, and they only sell it for $45 because if they priced it any higher, nobody would buy it. I think Harrison's DSP accounts for about $44 of the total value there, take that out and you're left with a basic recording software that fails badly once you start to do more than recording.

            It will never be suitable for more than recording, the front page or Ardour.org says it all:

            Being the best tool to record talented performers on actual instruments has always been a top priority for Ardour. Rather than being focused on electronic and pop music idioms, Ardour steps out of the way to encourage the creative process to remain where it always has been: a musician playing a carefully designed and well built instrument.
            So there you have it, only Led Zeppelin tribute bands and snooty Beethoven wannabes and other outdated traditional genres are real musicians according to Ardour.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by porkbutt View Post

              So there you have it, only Led Zeppelin tribute bands and snooty Beethoven wannabes and other outdated traditional genres are real musicians according to Ardour.
              Why should anyone care about the abomination called music that exists today. Real music is acoustic and usually lack nerv-wracking singers.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Akka View Post
                Why should anyone care about the abomination called music that exists today. Real music is acoustic and usually lack nerv-wracking singers.
                Yes, because there is only pop music. Ok, that might apply to the US, but here in Europe we have countless very healthy electronic music scenes that don't need vocalists.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by porkbutt View Post
                  No, Reaper on Linux will be a fail. They've realized that WINE sucks, so they're hoping some generous developer will come fix their "native" Linux port, which in fact just wraps Windows system calls as Linux system calls. They don't even care enough to do the works themselves, I guarantee you that it will never amount to anything.
                  I have my doubts about the Reaper linux port, as well... One thing that i will say though, is that winelib apps can be very good, there are several companies/products that are based on them in the proaudio industry. but they aren't the simplest to write, and 'vanilla' wine can't support them anyway.

                  Originally posted by porkbutt View Post
                  So there you have it, only Led Zeppelin tribute bands and snooty Beethoven wannabes and other outdated traditional genres are real musicians according to Ardour.
                  Well, it depends on one's definition of 'musician';

                  1. A person who is talented or skilled in music.
                  2. A person who plays a musical instrument, esp. professionally.

                  I generally do not consider people who do not play instruments (or have vocal talent) to be musicians, since they aren't. They haven't studied music, do not understand music theory and cannot pick up and instrument and play it. (or use their voice). Even a good composer, has years of piano / music theory under his or her belt...

                  if you are using XYZ app to write music, cannot play an instrument, etc than you are an electronic musician/producer. Which is valid in it's own right ~ but that does not make you a musician. it is entirely a different skill set and doesn't require the same discipline.

                  It is true, that Ardour's focus has been on modelling itself around traditional recording methods ~ but Ardour 3.0 is moving past that and as time passes, MIDI sequencing is going to play a critical role (which is pretty obvious), so if i were you, i would probably just relax. be patient and/or contribute rather than complaining, since complaining is rather useless anyway.

                  Or if Ardour isn't for you, then use Renoise or wait for Bitwig Studio to be released for linux (which should happen this summer).

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                  • #24
                    Wow, what a big bucket of fail Ardour and it's supporters are.

                    I would love to hear the music of you people who get to decide the definition of musican... I'm guess Akka likes to relive the glory days of Aerosmith pretending to be Steven Tyler in his Aerosmith tribute band, and according to Google Translate, Ninez is the portuguese word for "I play the trumpet in a Salsa band, that sounds remarkably similar to the Salsa band my grandfather played in". And yet, there are countless musicians who are more famous and respected than any user of Ardour, yet Ardour users somehow reason that their music isn't really music, and that nobody should need more than Ardour has. News flash, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's not music. It just means you're getting old.

                    This is exactly why Ardour is completely irrelevant in the global music production scene, and so are it's users for that matter. Cubase spits in its customers faces every day and charges $500 for the privilege, and yet it still has millions more users than Ardour ever will because they deliver the experience and features users want, even though Ardour is lucky to get a $1 donation from it's users.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by porkbutt View Post
                      I would love to hear the music of you people who get to decide the definition of musican... I'm guess Akka likes to relive the glory days of Aerosmith pretending to be Steven Tyler in his Aerosmith tribute band, and according to Google Translate, Ninez is the portuguese word for "I play the trumpet in a Salsa band, that sounds remarkably similar to the Salsa band my grandfather played in". And yet, there are countless musicians who are more famous and respected than any user of Ardour, yet Ardour users somehow reason that their music isn't really music, and that nobody should need more than Ardour has. News flash, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's not music. It just means you're getting old.
                      I wrote the dictionary terms for musician and then wrote my personal opinion, as to where where i see 'the line'. If you don't actually have any musical skill, nor any musical training - then yeah, you're not a musician.

                      You may very well write awesome electronic music - but then you are a producer ~ which is 100% fine, nothing wrong with that at all. ~ I NEVER said that XYZ music wasn't music, Nor at any point did i anything hint at 'not liking something' on that basis either.... Quite frankly, my tastes in music are quite broad and includes lots of sampled / electronic music... so your interpretation of what i said VS. what i actually said is quite stupid, to say the least :\

                      Many kids who sit in front of their laptops but don't know how to play any real instrument / have no understanding of music theory / nor the raw talent to play an instrument also would likely not be able to get into a music school (@ university/college level), since that requires musicial knowledge and training ~ you know -> Something that is quite common for 'musicians' to do.

                      The problem here is you are offended by the dictionary term, and how the word 'musician' are broadly understood, rather than just accepting it and realizing that a producer/engineer (kid writing techno, hiphop, whatever) doesn't necessarily meet the definition of what a musician is understood to be... Being a producer is just as valid / nothing wrong with it, but producing beats on a laptop is not the same as mastering an instrument - and musicians are people who work towards / mastering instruments...

                      you don't see me bitching and complaining that the label 'producer' should be redifined to include people who don't produce/engineer music, do you? lol.

                      you're out to lunch, kid.

                      EDIT: i also don't happen to be a die-hard Ardour user - it's just one project that i watch. I am more interested in Bitwig, persoanlly, since it tends to be geared towards live-use to a much larger degree.
                      Last edited by ninez; 03-15-2013, 06:16 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by porkbutt View Post
                        Wow, what a big bucket of fail Ardour and it's supporters are.

                        I would love to hear the music of you people who get to decide the definition of musican... I'm guess Akka likes to relive the glory days of Aerosmith pretending to be Steven Tyler in his Aerosmith tribute band,
                        I count Aerosmith in the category modern abomination of music (not all music from the last hundred years is "modern abomination" but Aerosmith certainly is...) I do play guitar but not a electrical. My guitar is hollow and has sinew strings (or nylon sometimes unfortunately)
                        Last edited by Akka; 03-15-2013, 06:24 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ninez View Post
                          but obviously, if you can't adjust an apps settings to work properly in under three weeks (more like an hour tops!), then obviously, you should be using Windows ~ so i agree.
                          Gave it another try today after a long time. Still broken :-/ Until I can get past this:

                          http://sourceforge.net/p/wineasio/di...read/9410dc90/

                          I can't do anything with Wine and wineasio.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                            Gave it another try today after a long time. Still broken :-/ Until I can get past this:

                            http://sourceforge.net/p/wineasio/di...read/9410dc90/

                            I can't do anything with Wine and wineasio.
                            Well, looking at that - i think i have come to the same conclusion as JH did, it looks like your jack setup (or something related) is somewhat broken. (?) for one, there is no reason to be limited to glibc 2.14 or even 2.16 ~ since i have built/used wineASIO with all of them, including 2.17 (which i currently have installed). so i doubt it plays any part. Maybe your lib32 stuff with jackd is buggered..

                            - can you use any 32bit apps with jackd? (native apps, since you mention your system being multilib?)

                            - is wine working properly, aside from wineASIO? (have you tried installing FSThost and launching a .dll VST? , if so, what happened?)

                            I have a feeling your problem lies somewhere in jack and/or 32bit support... Something is definitely broken on your end / bad configuration....anyway, if you can run a VST in FSThost, then maybe it's a bug in wineASIO. but if it (fsthost) fails too - then there is something wrong with your setup in 32bit support (if 'native' 32bit works, then it's possible that it's 32bit/Wine related. if native 32bit app fails with jack, then your system is most likely not setup properly).

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                            • #29
                              A UI refresh would be nice, Ardour just feels clunky when I use it compared to other DAWs I've used in the past.

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                              • #30
                                whatever your views are, they are good. I have used both together and was surprised by its quality http://himanshunegi.in/consideration...sion-software/

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