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GNOME To Use JavaScript For New User Programs

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Teho View Post
    What would stop you from statically linking Qt to your program? It's licenced under LGPL 2.1 or later after all. You can also make modifications to it but you just have to release them like the licence requires.
    You're right, I was thinking from the point of view of proprietary software - where statically linking without a commercial license is not allowed.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by kigurai View Post
      Because anyone suggesting that GNOME should give up all the work and expertise they already have in GTK and switch to Qt is either trolling, or out of touch with reality.

      As a side note: I really like Qt. For a cross platform project I'd choose that over GTK any day.
      Ok, I agree. I didn't take expertise into account.

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      • #33
        Craziness if you ask me. It isn't that developers don't need a good scripting type language, just that JavaScript is far from ideal. Personally Python would be a good solution for app development.

        In any event this thread highlights a big issue with Linux, both KDE and Gnome are terrible development environments. People are starting to realize this and maybe that is why JavaScript is being promoted. However this more or less implies that Gnome needs to be rethought.

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        • #34
          I really don't see a big difference from KDE. I get the impression kde propagate for java script/QML int the gui more and more and javascript or c++ in the other layer. To me it's look like the full c++ apps is destined to disappear also on kde. Plasma2 is supposed to be mostly in qml and javascript and also kwin use qml or javascript for animation and behavioral scripting.
          The underlying code in the libs is c++ just as its c on gnome.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
            In any event this thread highlights a big issue with Linux, both KDE and Gnome are terrible development environments.
            Maybe on the desktop, but in mobile/embedded at least Qt/QML etc. is doing quite well, looks like GNOME is finally getting on that train too* with JS, alongside FFOS & others.
            Considering bindings do exist & are fairly well maintained, I would've preferred to have seen them come on-board w/Qt/QML, BUT given political clashes in the past I half-expected that to not happen, sadly.
            That of course is only part of the equation, they are way more entrenched in the js side of things, so the upheaval isn't exactly easy...

            *in a more coordinated/consolidated way then ever before
            Last edited by jalyst; 02-05-2013, 08:42 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
              Craziness if you ask me. It isn't that developers don't need a good scripting type language, just that JavaScript is far from ideal. Personally Python would be a good solution for app development.
              While I too prefer Python over JS (though I have honestly not used the latter for desktop applications) I see why they chose it. Gnome-Shell already allows (requires?) extensions to be written in javascript, so extending this to be the preferred language for other applications seems logical.

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              • #37
                JavaScript is unsuitable for non-trivial applications because of
                1. dynamic typing - performance will be (much) worse than with static typing in most cases
                2. runtime compilation - compiler increases memory usage and slows down application especially start-up - code compiled during runtime can't be shared between processes/applications
                Last edited by JS987; 02-05-2013, 09:11 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JS987 View Post
                  JavaScript is unsuitable for non-trivial applications because of
                  1. dynamic typing - performance will be (much) worse than with static typing in most cases
                  2. runtime compilation - compiler increases memory usage and slows down application especially start-up - code compiled during runtime can't be shared between applications
                  Considering the huge number of non-trivial applications that are running on languages that have the properties you define, I'd say it is definitely suitable.

                  Case in point: Youtube runs on Python.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                    Considering the huge number of non-trivial applications that are running on languages that have the properties you define, I'd say it is definitely suitable.

                    Case in point: Youtube runs on Python.
                    http://highscalability.com/youtube-architecture
                    Youtube is also using Apache written in C and MySQL written in C/C++.
                    Youtube can add more servers if performance isn't sufficient.
                    Youtube web application is trivial compared to MySQL.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JS987 View Post
                      http://highscalability.com/youtube-architecture
                      Youtube is also using Apache written in C and MySQL written in C/C++.
                      Youtube can add more servers if performance isn't sufficient.
                      Youtube web application is trivial compared to MySQL.
                      ......and?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JS987 View Post
                        http://highscalability.com/youtube-architecture
                        Youtube is also using Apache written in C and MySQL written in C/C++.
                        Youtube can add more servers if performance isn't sufficient.
                        Youtube web application is trivial compared to MySQL.
                        This does however not change the fact that Youtube use Python, which is a language with dynamic typing.
                        I am not going to argue whether a web application is more or less trivial than MySQL.
                        I just think we can all agree that Youtube does not really count as a "trivial" application.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                          I just think we can all agree that Youtube does not really count as a "trivial" application.
                          Python web applications don't include a lot of Python code as majority of code is client side (HTML, Javascript) and SQL commands.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                            anyone suggesting that GNOME should give up all the work and expertise they already have in GTK and switch to Qt is either trolling, or out of touch with reality.
                            Gnome didn't give up GTK when they adopted Clutter. They simply added another official toolkit. Qt is perfectly usable for applications conforming to Gnome HIG.


                            Originally posted by Akka View Post
                            I really don't see a big difference from KDE. I get the impression kde propagate for java script/QML int the gui more and more and javascript or c++ in the other layer. To me it's look like the full c++ apps is destined to disappear also on kde. Plasma2 is supposed to be mostly in qml and javascript and also kwin use qml or javascript for animation and behavioral scripting.
                            The underlying code in the libs is c++ just as its c on gnome.
                            The difference is that QML is a GUI building language and not a programming language. The primary language to implement application logic in Qt is still C++.
                            Maybe I overlooked something but this does not seem an attempt at replacing their UI format with something newer than gtkbuilder. Instead it seems it's gtkbuilder for UIs and JavaScript for back-end stuff, ie. the opposite of what KDE is doing.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                              Gnome didn't give up GTK when they adopted Clutter. They simply added another official toolkit. Qt is perfectly usable for applications conforming to Gnome HIG.




                              The difference is that QML is a GUI building language and not a programming language. The primary language to implement application logic in Qt is still C++.
                              Maybe I overlooked something but this does not seem an attempt at replacing their UI format with something newer than gtkbuilder. Instead it seems it's gtkbuilder for UIs and JavaScript for back-end stuff, ie. the opposite of what KDE is doing.
                              Some high profie kde software like plasma2 is supposed to be allmost c++ free soon as I understand it, the plasma applets do have logic. I don't get the impression kde try too steer the third part development to use busnisslogic in javascript but I'm sure a software like plasma affect the rest of the community. I'm sure we soon see small and light program without own heavy logic in qml and javascript. I'm sure Gnome don't plan the next office suit in javasript either.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Akka View Post
                                Some high profie kde software like plasma2 is supposed to be allmost c++ free soon as I understand it, the plasma applets do have logic. I don't get the impression kde try too steer the third part development to use busnisslogic in javascript but I'm sure a software like plasma affect the rest of the community. I'm sure we soon see small and light program without own heavy logic in qml and javascript. I'm sure Gnome don't plan the next office suit in javasript either.
                                That's not happening at all. The plasma 2 libary is still (completely?) written in C++ and so are probably all of the default dataengines. Only the plasmoids and containers themselves are written in QML and most of the heavy lifting is done by the dataengines (which can be written in various scripting languages but are mostly done in C++ and will be so in the future too because of speed and efficiency).

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