Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fedora Proposal To Use Cinnamon Desktop By Default

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by kickback999 View Post
    If you were right, surely far less people would be complaining and flocking to other desktops?
    Change for changes sake is a bad thing.
    Why do you insist that Shell is "change for change sake"? We get that you don't like it, but why can't you grasp the fact that not everyone agrees with you. Some of us regard Shell as a massive improvement over it's predecessor, and over the other desktops.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by finalzone View Post
      Show a clear analysis and methodology to support your claim that gnome users who support Gnome Shell are minority.
      Fair point, the majority of gnome users DO support gnome shell. You are right and I stand corrected.
      The rest have already switched.. and you cannot deny gnome has hemorrhaged users since the release of gnome3.

      Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
      Why do you insist that Shell is "change for change sake"? We get that you don't like it, but why can't you grasp the fact that not everyone agrees with you. Some of us regard Shell as a massive improvement over it's predecessor, and over the other desktops.
      I dont think im the only one hahaha!
      GS supporters all seem act as if each person who complains individually is the only person complaining. You also have the sheer arrogance to assume that we haven't given it a chance. Why do you think this whole issue has created such a stink? It's not just me.
      I used it for about 3 months. If it was any better than gnome 2 surely I would still be using it. I wouldn't be using MATE or cinnamon or some other environment.
      But yea, the operative word in your post was some. Not majority, not all..

      Your combatant responses show a sheer arrogance and disregard for the preferences of anyone who doesn't like gnome 3. I suggested a reasonable compromise, you dismissed it out of hand and with no reasoning.

      If your criticisms of me are valid, then you have also stooped to the same level.
      Last edited by kickback999; 01-27-2013, 05:49 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
        You talk about the mode change stuff, but that's only relevant when starting a new app, and in practice I barely notice it's existence - I'm using the keyboard for everything, so if the screen flickers a little as it auto-completes the program I'm running, I typically don't see it.

        And this is what I don't understand with you calling it a mobile interface. I use both Shell and Android day to day, and they have *nothing* in common. Android *is* all the things you're talking about - full-screen applications, slow switching between them, touch oriented. Shell isn't.
        Ok, I get it, interfacing with your keyboard is one way to avoid interacting with GS. Though, if you are using your keyboard for everything then all desktop environments are equal as long as they have key bindings. . Surprisingly, many people only use the keyboard for typing. Try using a mouse for everything (or touch) and you will see it's exactly like Android with some multi-window support bolted on.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by finalzone View Post
          Show a clear analysis and methodology to support your claim that gnome users who support Gnome Shell are minority.
          It was done many times already. Gnome shell devs and fanboys are the greatest example of an iphone syndrome:

          http://www.strandreports.com/sw4031.asp

          You should be cured.

          Comment


          • Fedora could do worse. Cinnamon is the best desktop I've ever tried, period.

            Caveats: I've only tried Gnome2, Unity, MATE, LXDE and Cinnamon. But out of those I like Cinnamon the best.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
              It was done many times already.
              Then providing us with one example when asked shouldn't be hard, right?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                Then providing us with one example when asked shouldn't be hard, right?
                It would be waste of my time. You can prove gnomes are wrong, but while they don't care then why should I bother? As you probably noticed, there's much more criticism after gnome shell appeared. Furthermore, Fedora is probably an only major distribution which ships gnome shell, so this should be enough to realize most of the users just hate shell.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                  It would be waste of my time.
                  If you have so precious little time, may I suggest not spending it hating on a desktop environment you don't use?
                  Seems like bad use of time.
                  Also, making harsh statements and then back down when someone calls you out on it is not really what I consider nice either.
                  But this is Phoronix, and we are speaking about GNOME so who cares about manners or facts, right?

                  As you probably noticed, there's much more criticism after gnome shell appeared.
                  I have noticed that a lot of Linux users seem to like to whine about new stuff.
                  I have seen it with NetworkManager and with PulseAudio, and a bunch of other stuff. So you might see why I don't think "there are a lot of criticism after project X appeared" is a good measure of whether project X is actually going to be succesful.
                  Last edited by kigurai; 01-27-2013, 12:02 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                    If you have so precious little time, may I suggest not spending it hating on a desktop environment you don't use?
                    Seems like bad use of time.
                    Also, making harsh statements and then back down when someone calls you out on it is not really what I consider nice either.
                    But this is Phoronix, and we are speaking about GNOME so who cares about manners or facts, right?
                    Criticizing isn't equal to hating. I didn't run away, because I backed up my point. It seems it is you who don't care about the facts. It's a fact major distributions don't ship with gnome shell as a default, it's a fact gnome doesn't care about criticism and it's a fact gnome shell is hated by many users - polls show users prefer KDE, XFCE, Unity and Cinnamon over shell:

                    http://pollator.com/polls/which-linu...-are-you-using
                    http://forums.opensuse.org/english/o...pplicable.html
                    http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopi...0787&start=360
                    http://www.muktware.com/articles/351...op-environment
                    http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ts&pollid=1955
                    https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39
                    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 - even here - in the gnome shell bastion, KDE is nearly as popular as gnome3/shell

                    I have noticed that a lot of Linux users seem to like to whine about new stuff.
                    I have seen it with NetworkManager and with PulseAudio, and a bunch of other stuff. So you might see why I don't think "there are a lot of criticism after project X appeared" is a good measure of whether project X is actually going to be succesful.
                    Apples to oranges comparison. NetworkManager and PulseAudio were criticized, because of bugs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                      Criticizing isn't equal to hating. I didn't run away, because I backed up my point. It seems it is you who don't care about the facts. It's a fact major distributions don't ship with gnome shell as a default, it's a fact gnome doesn't care about criticism and it's a fact gnome shell is hated by many users - polls show users prefer KDE, XFCE, Unity and Cinnamon over shell:

                      http://pollator.com/polls/which-linu...-are-you-using
                      http://forums.opensuse.org/english/o...pplicable.html
                      http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopi...0787&start=360
                      http://www.muktware.com/articles/351...op-environment
                      http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ts&pollid=1955
                      https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39
                      http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 - even here - in the gnome shell bastion, KDE is nearly as popular as gnome3/shell
                      And I have seen exactly 0 of these polls. I doubt the rest of the people at my department that happily use GNOME3 have seen them either.
                      Most users are happily unaware of the pletora of different forums that exist.
                      The same poll can get vastly different results depending on where and who you ask. Your links is actually a good example of that.
                      For example, check the poll numbers for Cinnamon in your Arch link compared to the Mint link. Given these, is Cinnamon really really popular, or irrelevant?

                      And since when is Fedora not a major distribution?

                      As for GNOME devs listening to critics. I see plenty of stuff that has changed due to user feedback (recent GNOME classic is one example).
                      Ignoring critique that goes against the overall vision of the project is a good thing. You just happen to believe it is a bad thing since you don't like the vision.
                      I for one think it is great that there is some kind of vision.

                      Apples to oranges comparison. NetworkManager and PulseAudio were criticized, because of bugs.
                      No, they were criticized a lot for fixing "problems that did not exist", and for "regressions/missing features".
                      I think the similarity is quite striking.
                      Note that I agree that there was some features that went missing when you upgraded from GNOME 2.32 to 3.0. But they have crept back and current version is actually just awesome.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kickback999 View Post
                        The rest have already switched.. and you cannot deny gnome has hemorrhaged users since the release of gnome3.
                        Which users?

                        I dont think im the only one hahaha!
                        GS supporters all seem act as if each person who complains individually is the only person complaining. You also have the sheer arrogance to assume that we haven't given it a chance. Why do you think this whole issue has created such a stink? It's not just me.
                        You made the mistake to think about arrogance when pointed out about your own bad habit. For you, it is much easier to complain rather than researching or asking for help. When you loudly complain, prepare for the reaction.

                        I used it for about 3 months. If it was any better than gnome 2 surely I would still be using it. I wouldn't be using MATE or cinnamon or some other environment.
                        But yea, the operative word in your post was some. Not majority, not all..
                        If you really use for three months, you would come with detailed results of shortfall and points to improve which you failed to do. You just highlighted your own preferences which is MATE or Cinnamon (one is based on dead technologies and the other is just an extended tweaked Gnome Shell).

                        Your combatant responses show a sheer arrogance and disregard for the preferences of anyone who doesn't like gnome 3. I suggested a reasonable compromise, you dismissed it out of hand and with no reasoning.
                        Funny that Cinnamon is a variation of Gnome 3 which can be easily reproduced by Gnome Classic (excluding the forks like Nemo which is easily reproducible with the extensibility of Nautilus file manager ). What do you expect when you start a combative post?

                        If your criticisms of me are valid, then you have also stooped to the same level.
                        What you call criticisms of you is only highlighted by your own reactionary post. The message is to think twice before sending a post with a better manner.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                          it's a fact gnome shell is hated by many users - polls show users prefer KDE, XFCE, Unity and Cinnamon over shell:
                          Nah, you just make shit up. Let's see…

                          http://pollator.com/polls/which-linu...-are-you-using

                          Gnome 3, Unity, and Xfce are practically tied on 2nd place.
                          Cinnamon is only available via the "Other" option which means that any claim of Cinnamon being more popular than Gnome 3 is unfounded.

                          http://forums.opensuse.org/english/o...pplicable.html

                          Gnome is #2 with more than twice as many votes as Xfce.

                          http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopi...0787&start=360
                          This is the only listed poll in which Gnome 3 does not occupy one of the top spots. Considering it's Mint, it's not surprising. Gnome 3 still beat Unity, btw.

                          http://www.muktware.com/articles/351...op-environment

                          Gnome 3 is #2.

                          http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ts&pollid=1955
                          Gnome 3 is far in front of Cinnamon, Unity, MATE,…

                          https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39
                          Outdated version of that poll. Gnome 3 is on #3 spot in both the outdated and the current one, though.
                          No one even voted for Unity or Cinnamon so far.

                          http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463
                          And still Gnome 3 is #1 here.

                          If your links to polls made a point, then to make KDE’s Plasma Desktop default and drop Cinnamon because no one except the Mint crowd seems to actually care and Xfce established itself as alternative for followers of Gnome's traditional UI. The polls also are evidence that Gnome 3 is actually well received, ranking among the top spots.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                            Nah, you just make shit up. Let's see…

                            http://pollator.com/polls/which-linu...-are-you-using

                            Gnome 3, Unity, and Xfce are practically tied on 2nd place.
                            Cinnamon is only available via the "Other" option which means that any claim of Cinnamon being more popular than Gnome 3 is unfounded.

                            http://forums.opensuse.org/english/o...pplicable.html

                            Gnome is #2 with more than twice as many votes as Xfce.

                            http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopi...0787&start=360
                            This is the only listed poll in which Gnome 3 does not occupy one of the top spots. Considering it's Mint, it's not surprising. Gnome 3 still beat Unity, btw.

                            http://www.muktware.com/articles/351...op-environment

                            Gnome 3 is #2.

                            http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ts&pollid=1955
                            Gnome 3 is far in front of Cinnamon, Unity, MATE,…

                            https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39
                            Outdated version of that poll. Gnome 3 is on #3 spot in both the outdated and the current one, though.
                            No one even voted for Unity or Cinnamon so far.

                            http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463
                            And still Gnome 3 is #1 here.

                            If your links to polls made a point, then to make KDE’s Plasma Desktop default and drop Cinnamon because no one except the Mint crowd seems to actually care and Xfce established itself as alternative for followers of Gnome's traditional UI. The polls also are evidence that Gnome 3 is actually well received, ranking among the top spots.
                            Wow thanks, I hadn't quite realised it was THAT bad for gnome 3.
                            For a DE that used to be #1 with over 40% that IS terrible. Its user base has more than halved

                            Also regards to fedoraforum what do you expect, its a distro that still uses gnome3 as default. With that taken into consideration, you might expect it to have more than just a VERY slim lead.

                            I dont think you noticed the figures on the arch linux page for GNOME SHELL vs Compiz either.

                            Oh and..
                            Originally posted by finalzone
                            Which users?
                            About 50 percent of the people who were using gnome 2.
                            If you could find and evidence to dispute the fact that gnome usage has halved since gnome 3 it would be in stark contrast to anything I could find.
                            Remember the question is not that of a comparison of gnome usage to all the other DE's (MATE and Cinnamon having had far less time to acrue users than gnome did) but rather how many people used gnome before gnome3 in comparison how many use it now.
                            Last edited by kickback999; 01-27-2013, 05:29 PM.

                            Comment


                            • The reason this discussion isn't leading anywhere, is because:

                              1) The Gnome Shell fanbois don't seem to grasp the simple fact that their Workflow is not the only one out there

                              2) Some Gnome Shell "haters" don't seem to understand that for most desktop people Shell is actually an improvement over the traditional desktop because it provides more usable space, plus it looks cooler.

                              I have said it many times and i will repeat it: Gnome Shell is not well suited for heavy duty multitasking. This does NOT mean that it is not possible to be used in such a way. Hell, even a pure Console could be used for this if someone really wanted. This simply means that it is not the ideal solution. Gnome Shell is mainly targeted at consumers, not producers.

                              The reason there has been such a backslash for Shell, is because Gnome used to be the DE of choice for the producer, and now it is not. It is not "fear for the new stuff" or "trolling" or anything like it. Gnome used to provide us with a solution and now they removed it with no good reason. At least they should have provided a classic desktop environment for those of us who need it. They are planning to provide it with 3.8. They should have done it earlier.

                              For those who really like Shell, well, good for you. Trust me, i like it too. It is really good for casual use, and many times when i do not work i switch to it. Fedora is an advanced distro targeted at professionals more than regular users(for this there is Ubuntu). So the proposal to use Cinnamon by default makes sense. What makes no sense, is to use Shell by default in a distro targeted at productivity... It is YOU Gnome Shell LOVERS that are in the wrong here...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                                1) The Gnome Shell fanbois don't seem to grasp the simple fact that their Workflow is not the only one out there
                                Not sure we are reading the same thread. But if that has actually been the case, then those people are assholes. Workflow is a personal matter.

                                I have said it many times and i will repeat it: Gnome Shell is not well suited for heavy duty multitasking. This does NOT mean that it is not possible to be used in such a way. Hell, even a pure Console could be used for this if someone really wanted. This simply means that it is not the ideal solution. Gnome Shell is mainly targeted at consumers, not producers.
                                And I disagree. I think it works equally or better than GNOME2 in this regard. This is a matter of opinion and not fact. As far as I know no real study on productivity has been done.

                                For those who really like Shell, well, good for you. Trust me, i like it too. It is really good for casual use, and many times when i do not work i switch to it. Fedora is an advanced distro targeted at professionals more than regular users(for this there is Ubuntu). So the proposal to use Cinnamon by default makes sense. What makes no sense, is to use Shell by default in a distro targeted at productivity... It is YOU Gnome Shell LOVERS that are in the wrong here...
                                And as I repeatedly has said. Claiming that Gnome-Shell is not good for productivity is actually quite offensive considering that I and a lot of other people doing work that are far from "casual" are using it daily without any problems.

                                I think the number one reason why these "discussions" don't work is that personal opinions are mistaken for hard truths.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X