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  • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
    The Gnome Shell faces legitimate criticism but as is usual with the Gnome mentality, it is their way or the highway. The funny part is that GNOME's mentality was tolerated for so much time because it was the one Ubuntu used, and because Gnome 2 worked both for casual and productive uses. Now that there are other alternatives and GNOME Shell hinders the productive user, people are fleeing in large numbers. Soon the Shell will be used only by its developers and its sworn fanboys, if this trend continues. There is hope though, since in 3.8 the Classic mode will return. What have the fanboys to say about THAT? Is it the wrong move? Why GNOME devs waste precious resources to go back in time? Will "progress" be destroyed? What?
    Do you realize that your post here is internally inconsistent? First you berate Gnome for not taking "legitimate criticism" and for believing it is "their way or the highway" and then you mention GNOME Classic as if it proves your point. Well, sorry to shatter your allusion, but that was created because they heard the criticism and because they took other users opinions on board. This whole argument is bloody redundant. Please, if you have something useful to add, actually contribute feedback to the people developing the classic mode you guys have been wanting for years instead of continuing to perpetuate this childish and vindictive victimization cult you have going on. Is it really so hard to put your ego aside and actually try and build something for once? And you people have the gall of criticize the developers for supposedly having egos...

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    • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      How many actualy arguments do you see on why it is good?
      There is a ton of blog posts with cool GNOME features. But I think it is common courtesy to specify why you think something is bad if you are trash-talking it.

      Since you were replying to me earlier, I explicitly welcome choice -- as long as the big players cooperate on common desktop infrastructure so things interoperate. However, when people actually argue that there is only one way to use a computer and running anything else is wrong (like the guy I was replying to earlier), then these people have lost all sense of reality.
      I agree.

      Once a desktop stops doing what people need it to do, people will not spend years changing their habits, people will flock to software which lets them do what they want. KDE learned and has listened to people's complaints after early KDE 4 versions removed functionality, and it changed for the better as a result. Now it seems like GNOME will have to learn the same lesson.
      I think it is good that GNOME dares to go in its own direction. Because I like that direction. There are already a ton of more or less similar desktops, so I fail to see why GNOME should "fall in line" here. Since choice seem to be so important for a lot of people, GNOME going in a different direction should be a good thing, right?

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      • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
        I think it is good that GNOME dares to go in its own direction. Because I like that direction. There are already a ton of more or less similar desktops, so I fail to see why GNOME should "fall in line" here. Since choice seem to be so important for a lot of people, GNOME going in a different direction should be a good thing, right?
        Yeah, that's awesome. That's what Enlightenment, *box and the GNUStep crowd have been doing for a long time, and they have their loyal userbase. I have no problem with this.

        However, this will impact the "default" status of GNOME as the dominant desktop. And it might make it an exotic alternative like E17 or ratpoison, instead of being the face of the Linux desktop. http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/...nto-the-abyss/

        As a KDE user, the only thing I'm interested is that everything interoperates, so I am not punished for my choice.

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        • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
          Yeah, that's awesome. That's what Enlightenment, *box and the GNUStep crowd have been doing for a long time, and they have their loyal userbase. I have no problem with this.

          However, this will impact the "default" status of GNOME as the dominant desktop. And it might make it an exotic alternative like E17 or ratpoison, instead of being the face of the Linux desktop. http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/...nto-the-abyss/

          As a KDE user, the only thing I'm interested is that everything interoperates, so I am not punished for my choice.
          So, because GNOME is some kind of de facto default they can never change? Sounds like a fun project.

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          • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
            So, because GNOME is some kind of de facto default they can never change? Sounds like a fun project.
            No, I don't think that they should not change, they should. But it has always been their stated goal to be THE desktop for everyone (after killing KDE). They did a lot of politics to get into that position. This would be a very large departure from this plan.

            In any case, the days of the desktop dichotomy are over. Now we have 4-5 good contenders in KDE, GNOME, Xfce, Unity and Cinnamon. And, of course the "WM+launcher+apps" crowd which will always be a significant factor on the Linux desktop.

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            • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
              No, I don't think that they should not change, they should. But it has always been their stated goal to be THE desktop for everyone (after killing KDE). They did a lot of politics to get into that position. This would be a very large departure from this plan.
              Well, I think Gnome-Shell is just as much the desktop for everyone as gnome 2 ever was. If anything it is probably better for the masses since I think GNOME3 is probably the Linux desktop I have used that has required no tweaking at all to work or look good. This, as much else, is a matter of taste, of course.

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              • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                What is more telling is that other major distributions have moved away from it. Ubuntu and Mint, for example, and non-GNOME distros like Mageia and OpenSUSE are also gaining. Fedora is the only major distro where you get GS by default.
                Mageia equally supports KDE as well as GNOME.

                Note: Biased answer as I'm a Mageia packager focussed on GNOME

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                • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                  Well, I think Gnome-Shell is just as much the desktop for everyone as gnome 2 ever was. If anything it is probably better for the masses since I think GNOME3 is probably the Linux desktop I have used that has required no tweaking at all to work or look good. This, as much else, is a matter of taste, of course.
                  If you were right, surely far less people would be complaining and flocking to other desktops?
                  Change for changes sake is a bad thing.

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                  • Originally posted by bkor View Post
                    Mageia equally supports KDE as well as GNOME.

                    Note: Biased answer as I'm a Mageia packager focussed on GNOME
                    That was poor wording on my part.

                    I meant to say that KDE is the default desktop of Mageia, which might be why it is gaining ground. I didn't mean to say that Mageia's support for GNOME is bad!

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                    • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                      If you don't understand what is a forum, do not participate in one... I am tired of all these politically-correct "if you don't like it don't use it but don't say your opinion" BS...
                      Well, I hate it myself, only I don't think it's the case here. The case here is it has been almost 2 years since GS got released AND with very clear design goals and mockups AND you had the choice of different DE all this time and yet you choose to continue your anti-GS crusade.

                      On top of that it's usually nothing but bashing, unsubstantiated. How many times have we seen "I need to click 5 times to launch an app!!!" (I don't know wtf you were clicking, dude) or "Heyyy, I hate that you have to swipe the lock screen up, forcing me to use my computer like a freaking tablet" (this one has his escape key teleported to a mine field) yada yada yada.

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                      • Originally posted by Bucic View Post
                        On top of that it's usually nothing but bashing, unsubstantiated. How many times have we seen "I need to click 5 times to launch an app!!!" (I don't know wtf you were clicking, dude) or "Heyyy, I hate that you have to swipe the lock screen up, forcing me to use my computer like a freaking tablet" (this one has his escape key teleported to a mine field) yada yada yada.
                        It's not unsubstantiated. When criticisms of GS come up, its supporters like to compare apples to oranges. If we show that it takes extra clicks or movements of the mouse to start / switch apps, you're comeback will be it's actually faster because you can hit super and search it, or use alt + tab. Guess what, you could do that on gnome 2 also, especially with gnome-do. The original comparison stands though, taskbar vs. overview, start menu vs. overview/mode switch is at least an extra motion/click, and possibly more depending on what you are trying to do.
                        Last edited by thalaric; 01-26-2013, 06:58 PM.

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                        • Gnome-Shell did a wonderful thing: exposing the ego of whining users.
                          Some of them are not interested to hear advice from from Gnome-Shell developers and users.
                          Their own posts only display their selfishness and complete lack of analysis and logics.
                          One things that cannot be tolerated: perpetrating FUDs and lies about Gnome-Shell to fit hidden agenda.

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                          • Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                            Gnome-Shell did a wonderful thing: exposing the ego of whining users.
                            Some of them are not interested to hear advice from from Gnome-Shell developers and users.
                            Their own posts only display their selfishness and complete lack of analysis and logics.
                            One things that cannot be tolerated: perpetrating FUDs and lies about Gnome-Shell to fit hidden agenda.
                            People arent perpetrating "FUD and lies" as you put it.
                            These are valid criticisms being vocalised about concerned gnome users. Your attitude on the other hand appalls me.

                            I am finding this increasingly militant and highly vocal minority of gnome users who support GS to be highly amusing.

                            No one is asking to get rid of gnomeshell, its great for tablet users!
                            Surely everyone would be happy if gnome3 much closer resembled gnome2 but with GS as an option at point of installation.
                            Or as a "Tablet mode" option in System > Preferences.

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                            • Originally posted by kickback999 View Post
                              People arent perpetrating "FUD and lies" as you put it.
                              These are valid criticisms being vocalised about concerned gnome users. Your attitude on the other hand appalls me.
                              Your answer was actually anticipated which means you feel targeted because you feel exposed. The fact you need to reply faster without thinking and wonder why posts like yours are ignored by not only gnome developers but also other developers ready this message speaks itself. Next time, ask yourself the reasoning behind my post.

                              I am finding this increasingly militant and highly vocal minority of gnome users who support GS to be highly amusing.
                              Show a clear analysis and methodology to support your claim that gnome users who support Gnome Shell are minority.

                              No one is asking to get rid of gnomeshell, its great for tablet users!
                              Surely everyone would be happy if gnome3 much closer resembled gnome2 but with GS as an option at point of installation.
                              Or as a "Tablet mode" option in System > Preferences.
                              Who is that everybody wanting gnome3 to look like gnome2? For that sentence, it looks like that "everybody" want to freeze in time forgetting the world is constantly changing. Gnome Classic (as seen on Clarsen's blog) is nothing more than an extended Gnome Shell

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                              • Originally posted by thalaric View Post
                                Now the interface isn't optimized for either mobile or a workstation.
                                On the contrary - I find it very well optimised for workstation use. You might disagree, but I've been using Shell as my interface of choice pretty much since Fedora 15 came out, and for me, it *is* a very productive working environment - much more so than the older Gnome 2 interface I'm sometimes required to use.

                                So in what way do you think it's suboptimal for workstation use? I gather it has some issues around multi-head setups (which I don't use), but in all other respects I find it ideal on a big-screen desktop. You keep harping on about full-screen design, but I'm sitting here, routinely running a couple of windows per workspace - in particular, I get good value out of the basic tiling support, putting a terminal alongside an editor. You talk about the mode change stuff, but that's only relevant when starting a new app, and in practice I barely notice it's existence - I'm using the keyboard for everything, so if the screen flickers a little as it auto-completes the program I'm running, I typically don't see it.

                                And this is what I don't understand with you calling it a mobile interface. I use both Shell and Android day to day, and they have *nothing* in common. Android *is* all the things you're talking about - full-screen applications, slow switching between them, touch oriented. Shell isn't.

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