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GNOME & Mono Made Love At Microsoft Last Week

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  • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    Ah, now I see what you're doing. Tricked me there for a moment.
    Oh? Pray tell?

    Yeah, you guys aren't exactly Wine, you know. You aren't trying to provide a tool to run .NET software on Linux. If that was the case, that would be fine and worthy of support.
    Some people adapted Mono for that use case. It wasn't originally designed for that task, but the Free Software community stepped up and provided support for WinForms and ASP.NET, to help them run .NET software on Linux. But that's bad in RealNCLand, which doesn't bear much relationship to reality.

    No. You're trying to adopt .NET for Linux applications. That's what's wrong with you people.
    Why? Aren't developers adult enough to make their own decisions about technology? Or should all the developers in the world be phoning you to ask your permission before writing code?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by directhex View Post
      I'm helping hundreds of thousands of people to play games on Linux, via HIB.
      Nothing against that. You're doing good.

      I'm helping folk like Bulldog migrate away from Microsoft software, bit by bit.
      By moving from one .NET implementation to another? How's that migrating away from Microsoft?

      How about you? What's your contribution that makes you the saviour of Freedom, and me "in bed with Microsoft"?
      I'm helping people create and run old-school adventure games on Linux instead of being tied to the Windows tools. Yes, very small target audience with much, much less impact, but that's what I do and it matters to the people I do it for.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by directhex View Post
        Some people adapted Mono for that use case. It wasn't originally designed for that task
        Which it should have been. It's the only task it should be doing.

        Why? Aren't developers adult enough to make their own decisions about technology? Or should all the developers in the world be phoning you to ask your permission before writing code?
        They're free of course to do what they want. It just tells us something about Gnome developers. See? This discussion has come full circle. It's about my opinion of Gnome devs adopting .NET.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          Which it should have been. It's the only task it should be doing.
          Because you say so, and you're the high priest of Free Software. Got it.

          They're free of course to do what they want. It just tells us something about Gnome developers. See? This discussion has come full circle. It's about my opinion of Gnome devs adopting .NET.
          And by "adopting" you mean "not being actively hostile towards"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by directhex View Post
            Because you say so, and you're the high priest of Free Software. Got it.
            Yes, I say so. I'm expressing my personal opinions. No, I'm not the high priest of Free Software. Any other questions?

            And by "adopting" you mean "not being actively hostile towards"
            Exactly. I'm not preaching anti-microsoftism. I'm preaching militant anti-microsoftism. (And yes, I'm paraphrasing Richard Dawkins.)
            Last edited by RealNC; 07-12-2012, 09:00 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              Nothing against that. You're doing good.
              So running games on Linux which are written with .NET in mind is fine. Can I quote you on that?

              By moving from one .NET implementation to another? How's that migrating away from Microsoft?
              You don't see any value in dumping Windows Server for Debian, and Visual Source Safe for Subversion?

              Presumably you don't see any value in people dumping Microsoft Internet Explorer for Firefox, or Microsoft Office for LibreOffice, either?

              All or nothing?

              I'm helping people create and run old-school adventure games on Linux instead of being tied to the Windows tools. Yes, very small target audience with much, much less impact, but that's what I do and it matters to the people I do it for.
              And if a Free Software tool for that purpose existed, but was written with .NET, rather than saying "okay, let's get this bitch tested & cleaned up so Linux is a first class citizen" you'r run around screaming "UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!"?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by directhex View Post
                So running games on Linux which are written with .NET in mind is fine. Can I quote you on that?
                For Windows games? Absolutely.

                You don't see any value in dumping Windows Server for Debian, and Visual Source Safe for Subversion?

                Presumably you don't see any value in people dumping Microsoft Internet Explorer for Firefox, or Microsoft Office for LibreOffice, either?
                These are not relevant examples.

                And if a Free Software tool for that purpose existed, but was written with .NET, rather than saying "okay, let's get this bitch tested & cleaned up so Linux is a first class citizen" you'r run around screaming "UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!"?
                I'd prefer a native Linux version instead. I'd scream "UNCLEAN" if someone develops for Linux using .NET. If you're on Linux, you have SDL and OpenGL, which is very portable to begin with. For non game software, you have Gtk and Qt. Using .NET would be pure brain damage. Hm, I guess this pretty much suggests Gnome has developed brain damage.
                Last edited by RealNC; 07-12-2012, 09:10 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                  For Windows games? Absolutely.
                  And multi-platform games? Let me guess, those developers are evil because they should have written it in GCC intrinsics from day 1.

                  Bastion good, Spacechem bad?

                  These are not relevant examples.
                  Why not?

                  Bulldog dumped several pieces of Microsoft software for Free alternatives. Microsoft license fees: reduced. Free Software deployment: increased. How is that not relevant to someone doing exactly the same thing the other way round - i.e. switching from closed apps on a closed OS to open apps on a closed OS, rather than Bulldog's case (closed apps on a closed OS to closed apps on an open OS)

                  I'd prefer a native Linux version instead. I'd scream "UNCLEAN" if someone develops for Linux using .NET.
                  ".NET developers not welcome here, go back to where you came from" ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                    If you're on Linux, you have SDL and OpenGL, which is very portable to begin with.
                    And you can develop SDL and OpenGL games in the language of your choice, not just C, using bindings - Python, Java, C#, whatever.

                    For non game software, you have Gtk and Qt. Using .NET would be pure brain damage. Hm, I guess this pretty much suggests Gnome has developed brain damage.
                    And you can develop Gtk and Qt apps in the language of your choice, not just C/C++, using bindings - Python, Java, C#, whatever.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by asdx
                      FTFY.

                      Git > *
                      Sure. But that wasn't the anecdote provided by Bulldog, and even Svn is still better than VSS.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by directhex View Post
                        And multi-platform games? Let me guess, those developers are evil because they should have written it in GCC intrinsics from day 1.
                        What does this have to do with Gnome pushing .NET applications? I don't really give a flying fsck what multi-platform games are using.

                        Why not?
                        "Server" and "version control system" are not an analogue for "software development framework specification".

                        Bulldog dumped several pieces of Microsoft software for Free alternatives. Microsoft license fees: reduced. Free Software deployment: increased. How is that not relevant to someone doing exactly the same thing the other way round - i.e. switching from closed apps on a closed OS to open apps on a closed OS, rather than Bulldog's case (closed apps on a closed OS to closed apps on an open OS)
                        Did I miss something and Bulldog bought Gnome or something?

                        ".NET developers not welcome here, go back to where you came from" ?
                        Are you admitting with that statement that Gnome is now a .NET product?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                          What does this have to do with Gnome pushing .NET applications? I don't really give a flying fsck what multi-platform games are using.
                          You love this word "pushing", don't you? I don't think you understand what it means.

                          "Server" and "version control system" are not an analogue for "software development framework specification".
                          They are as far as business app deployment goes.

                          Did I miss something and Bulldog bought Gnome or something?
                          Wat?

                          Are you admitting with that statement that Gnome is now a .NET product?
                          No, because I'm not retarded, so I wouldn't make such statements.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by directhex View Post
                            They are as far as business app deployment goes.
                            Oh really? So "Debian" is a "Microsoft Server 2008" implementation in the same sense that Mono is a .NET implementation? Debian is no such thing, and you know it.

                            Wat?
                            You state how Bulldog was able to "get away from Microsoft" by using Mono. I don't see how that translates to Gnome. Is Gnome trying to get away from Microsoft too? No. Why is it using .NET then?

                            No, because I'm not retarded, so I wouldn't make such statements.
                            But you're projecting other people's reasons to use .NET upon Gnome. Gnome has no reason to use .NET in the sense you're describing here, namely as a method of getting rid of Microsoft software.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              Oh really? So "Debian" is a "Microsoft Server 2008" implementation in the same sense that Mono is a .NET implementation? Debian is no such thing, and you know it.
                              You're arguing for a very weird thing.

                              "Debian with Mono" is a "platform we need to run our app" implementation in the same sense that "Windows Server with .NET" is a "platform we need to run our app" implementation. Why does that concept confuse you?

                              Bulldog's company were able to replace, in his own numbers, about 40% of their Microsoft software with Free software, and you're arguing that this is a bad thing. If it hadn't have been for Mono, Debian would not have been a "platform we need to run our app" implementation and would not have replaced any Microsoft software.

                              You state how Bulldog was able to "get away from Microsoft" by using Mono. I don't see how that translates to Gnome. Is Gnome trying to get away from Microsoft too? No. Why is it using .NET then?
                              GNOME is trying to appeal to developers who want to develop on and for Free Software platforms. Why are you opposed to Free Software development?

                              But you're projecting other people's reasons to use .NET upon Gnome. Gnome has no reason to use .NET in the sense you're describing here, namely as a method of getting rid of Microsoft software.
                              I don't think you're particularly interested in the history of why Mono exists.

                              Suffice it to say that there has long been an overlap between GNOME and Mono developers, which is why Mono's support for GNOME technologies like Gtk+ has always been first-class compared to its support for non-GNOME technologies like Qt or WinForms. And at that point, Mono is as valid a framework as, say, Python, for developing apps for GNOME. Developers are free to make their own decisions. This hackfest was specifically to help improve the quality of Mono's support for GNOME technologies (e.g. GTK+3) and apps on GNOME (e.g. Tasque or Banshee), but that's not some statement on Mono being "pushed" or any such nonsense. If you had the first fucking clue about Free Software governance (and GNOME governance in particular) you'd understand that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by directhex View Post
                                "Debian with Mono" is a "platform we need to run our app" implementation in the same sense that "Windows Server with .NET" is a "platform we need to run our app" implementation. Why does that concept confuse you?
                                It doesn't confuse me. It's simply irrelevant to the discussion. "Debian with Mono" is definitely not the platform Gnome needs to run its apps.

                                Bulldog's company were able to replace, in his own numbers, about 40% of their Microsoft software with Free software, and you're arguing that this is a bad thing. If it hadn't have been for Mono, Debian would not have been a "platform we need to run our app" implementation and would not have replaced any Microsoft software.
                                So, what is Gnome replacing? I think it's C/Gtk. See below.

                                GNOME is trying to appeal to developers who want to develop on and for Free Software platforms. Why are you opposed to Free Software development?
                                So does XFCE. And KDE. And many others. I don't see *them* pushing .NET with "festivals of love."

                                I don't think you're particularly interested in the history of why Mono exists.

                                Suffice it to say that there has long been an overlap between GNOME and Mono developers, which is why Mono's support for GNOME technologies like Gtk+ has always been first-class compared to its support for non-GNOME technologies like Qt or WinForms. And at that point, Mono is as valid a framework as, say, Python, for developing apps for GNOME. Developers are free to make their own decisions. This hackfest was specifically to help improve the quality of Mono's support for GNOME technologies (e.g. GTK+3) and apps on GNOME (e.g. Tasque or Banshee), but that's not some statement on Mono being "pushed" or any such nonsense. If you had the first fucking clue about Free Software governance (and GNOME governance in particular) you'd understand that.
                                First, please don't resort to personal insults. Second, just throwing the word "governance" around doesn't make your arguments any more valid. Third, Gnome's embrace of .NET seems more like an admittance of failure to me. I'm speculating here, but I suspect that Gnome devs wanted something better than C and Gtk. C++ with Qt sure looked tasty, but their pride prevented them from using it. After all, they've been bashing it for a decade. So they went .NET.

                                Someone should make a "PHAIL" demotivational poster for that one.

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