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KDE No Longer Competitive? Developer Calls It Quits

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  • #61
    kraftman,

    Sometimes I make myself open and read your posts but all I see is "Linux has no problems", "You're a moron", "the list is moronic", and "all the people agreeing with it are stupid idiots".

    Way to go, sir!

    However most amusingly and contrary to your one-dimensional knee jerk reaction, people do agree and support this imbecile list. Maybe it's because you don't actually use Linux? ;-)

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Larian View Post
      KMix and Veromix may be just awesome, but there was no getting it to pipe audio through the HDMI cable. We dug through sound systems for two hours trying and applying settings to no effect. We took the "engineer's solution" route and killed the problem by installing an alternate distro with the GNOME3 environment, where audio just worked out of the box (Mint 13 with KDE to Mint 13 with GNOME, if you care to know). It wasn't an overabundance of settings that caused the problem - KDE simply failed us. We were under PulseAudio in both distros, and the exact same thing which worked under GNOME didn't do squat in KDE. That's a problem, and I'm frankly amazed that the desktop environment was causing it. Two hours of trying to get something as basic as audio piped to the correct port is more than a fair shake, I'd say.
      Don't blame KDE here. The audio component of Gnome is Pulse. The audio component of KDE is Phonon. The fact that a number of the distros through their arrogance have tried and tried and tried to force Pulse down our throats even though it is drastically flawed is not KDE's fault. I had nothing but problems until I yanked Pulse out except for the libs which I can't remove because of some stupid dependency shoved in by the Fedora package maintainers. It meant having to add in a config file to get the ALSA mixer working but since then (several years ago) my audio has run flawlessly. Yo, distro maintainers if I want to run Gnome I will run Gnome. Until then stop trying to force Gnome down my throat with stupid stunts like forcing us to take Pulse. Seriously who ever though that was a good idea? I mean other than Pottering?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by lucas_ View Post
        May I ask which distributions?
        Looks like I mis-spoke there, but didn't Canonical kill off their Kubuntu branch? I was honestly under the impression that it was becoming a rare bird and losing funding left and right. Am I mistaken?

        Comment


        • #64
          I am way too technically inept to understand what all the fuss is about but I use Linux Mint KDE via a USB and am more than happy with it. The MATE, Cinnamon, and Xfce variants of Linux Mint have given me problems, always causing me to return to the KDE variant. It gives me the most customization options and also happens to closely resemble Windows 7 (although I've been told that Windows 7 actually closely resembles KDE). I do hope KDE continues to stick around.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by jvillain View Post
            Don't blame KDE here. The audio component of Gnome is Pulse. The audio component of KDE is Phonon. The fact that a number of the distros through their arrogance have tried and tried and tried to force Pulse down our throats even though it is drastically flawed is not KDE's fault.
            PulseAudio is not Gnome technology nor is Phonon replacement for it. Phonon-GStreamer doesn't even support non-PulseAudio setups offically. I have no idea what makes you think that PA is somehow flawed as to me it seems like the best thing that has ever happened to audio on Linux. It supports many features that I couldn't live without like:
            -Multiple simultaneous outputs
            -Easy output and channel swapping
            -Proper bluetooth support
            -Application specific and systemwide volume control and equalizers
            -Jack detection
            ...among others.


            Originally posted by jvillain View Post
            Seriously who ever though that was a good idea? I mean other than Pottering?
            Considering the fact that it's used by all popular desktop distributions and all non-Android Linux mobile operating systems I would say that quite a few. Pottering hasn't even worked on PulseAudio for years now and it's still the most actively developed open source audio server out there.


            Originally posted by Larian
            Looks like I mis-spoke there, but didn't Canonical kill off their Kubuntu branch? I was honestly under the impression that it was becoming a rare bird and losing funding left and right. Am I mistaken?
            Not quite. Canonical moved their only paid Kubuntu developer to work on other stuff but then he was then hired by Blue Systems to continue his work on Kubuntu. Canonical still provides the developement infrastucture and hostring for Kubuntu. So essentially nothing has changed.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Larian View Post
              KMix and Veromix may be just awesome, but there was no getting it to pipe audio through the HDMI cable. We dug through sound systems for two hours trying and applying settings to no effect. We took the "engineer's solution" route and killed the problem by installing an alternate distro with the GNOME3 environment, where audio just worked out of the box (Mint 13 with KDE to Mint 13 with GNOME, if you care to know). It wasn't an overabundance of settings that caused the problem - KDE simply failed us. We were under PulseAudio in both distros, and the exact same thing which worked under GNOME didn't do squat in KDE. That's a problem, and I'm frankly amazed that the desktop environment was causing it. Two hours of trying to get something as basic as audio piped to the correct port is more than a fair shake, I'd say.
              I just did System Settings > Multimedia > Phonon, and for audio playback set HDMI as the top preference, and it works fine.

              Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
              I'm using kde 4.9 beta 2 and it still has the problem that the windowbar plasmoid often has problems shifting the window entries to the left and even displays two entries at the same place. That's not a new problem with the beta. That has been there for a long time and just looks bad.
              Wow, can't believe they haven't fixed that yet.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                I think, as peter points out, nowadays applications had become really bloated behind the scenes with no major usability improvements.
                I think he's actually saying that it's very difficult to program with little reward. Today, what appears to be simple is really complex. Steve Jobs and Apple have moved computing into a user-friendly simplified direction, and that is good... but it means one needs to come up with innovative methods, yet have complex, feature rich abilities.

                After 6 years of work Peter can't see much changed, even though there has been a horde of work. I programme myself and I can understand this.

                Example some people are also good at graphics and others with structure. Someone can spend a day doing an icon, where another a few hours. A whole day for an icon, means you sacrifice your life. KDE is a project with few workers, so getting supporters means a lot of work is done by those that are active and it can be inefficient and detrimental to one's life.

                Peter is saying he's near burnt out.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by jvillain View Post
                  Don't blame KDE here. The audio component of Gnome is Pulse. The audio component of KDE is Phonon. The fact that a number of the distros through their arrogance have tried and tried and tried to force Pulse down our throats even though it is drastically flawed is not KDE's fault. I had nothing but problems until I yanked Pulse out except for the libs which I can't remove because of some stupid dependency shoved in by the Fedora package maintainers. It meant having to add in a config file to get the ALSA mixer working but since then (several years ago) my audio has run flawlessly. Yo, distro maintainers if I want to run Gnome I will run Gnome. Until then stop trying to force Gnome down my throat with stupid stunts like forcing us to take Pulse. Seriously who ever though that was a good idea? I mean other than Pottering?
                  I feel like I've kicked the hornet's nest here, but I've got to stand by my observations: KDE was de-facto broken on Mint 13 because of hidden settings and audio incompatibility with industry standard hardware. I'm sure there is some configuration of hardware and software that works really well, but we didn't have that. For a new user just trying Linux, the KDE disk wouldn't play nice while the Gnome disk would. Yes, I'm not a fan of Pulse. Yes, it's a bloated layer that doesn't bring anything practical to the game for the majority of users. Yes we got it early, broken, and barely supported. But when it works, it works well.

                  Funny how the PulseAudio argument is of exactly the same structure as the KDE arguments I've received so far, but KDE isn't broken, it's the distro packager's fault... Phonon, blah blah blah. Look, I don't care. The KDE stuff didn't work. It just didn't. And the guy didn't care why, either. He isn't the least bit interested in politics and idealism. He wanted a method of getting his hardware to respond and interoperate like an OS is supposed to do, and he didn't want to go the Windows route. The KDE package didn't deliver. No matter what else is said or what apologetics are offered, you will not be able to wash away the simple fact that it didn't work, and it made KDE look even worse than it previously did in my sight. To us - that day - KDE was anything but a competitive option. It fell on its face right out of the gate.

                  My personal bitch with KDE is that it seemed locked down when I first tried it in version 4. Settings were in odd places when they could be found at all, I was completely unable to customize my desktop to my satisfaction (they wanted a "unified experience" on the desktop, and fuck what I wanted to do), and there were all these *surprise!* features that got in the way more than they added to my experience, while others were so unintuitive that I'm not sure I could figure out what they were for even today. But as I said, I'm comfortable in a Gnome 2 environment, and KDE is the dark side of the moon in comparison.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by boast View Post
                    I just did System Settings > Multimedia > Phonon, and for audio playback set HDMI as the top preference, and it works fine. .
                    We did mess around with Phonon as well but to no effect. To my mind, on a fresh install, things like this should be detected automatically and made the default. I don't know why the audio wasn't piped correctly either, and no set of sliders, work in ALSA-mixer, or burning little effigies of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs solved the problem.

                    Bug?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                      Who is the KDE initiator uses GNOME now?
                      There is only one KDE initiator: Matthias Ettrich.
                      Unless something changed, he currently works for Nokia on Qt. I cannot find it now but a few years back he held a presentation (either at Akademy, some Qt event, or Desktop Summit) and he used Ubuntu with GŃOME 2.x and he was asked why he used GNOME and he said that it matched his vision for KDE more than what KDE actually became.
                      I do now know what he uses today. As a Ubuntu user maybe Unity but that's just speculation.

                      Anyway: KDE survived his departure and the community actually even grew a lot since then. If KDE survived the departure of its founder to the competing side, KDE can even more so survive Peter's departure.

                      I fully agree with him that KDE lacks in a few places. As I mentioned the web browser side is one aspect. Kontact is not too well maintained either (although I find it better than Thunderbird or any web mailer). I have no religious attachment to KDE. It's not all or nothing to me (Peter's comments read to me like “aspect X and Y suck, therefore everything sucks”). If something does not work well, I use something else. I wonder why he does not do the same. It's not like the state of, say, Kontact has anything to do with Dolphin. I've seen people use Thunderbird instead of Kontact under Plasma Desktop, I've seen people use Pidgin instead of Kopete, I've seen people using LibreOffice instead of KOffice/Calligra.
                      What I don't agree with is the reason he gives for leaving. Why can't he just switch components as I and many other people did?

                      The core Plasma Desktop experience is IMO great and Plasma Desktop is very well maintained and in the process of being modernized (see libplasma2 and the QML ports of applets).

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Larian View Post
                        I feel like I've kicked the hornet's nest here, but I've got to stand by my observations: KDE was de-facto broken on Mint 13 because of hidden settings and audio incompatibility with industry standard hardware.
                        KDE doesn't interact with hardware directly; ALSA does. KDE uses PulseAudio if it's available (like Gnome) so the hardware is always as supported in KDE as it's in any other desktop environment that uses PA. Your problems were related to configuration which couldn't be any easier than what it's with Veromix.


                        Originally posted by Larian View Post
                        My personal bitch with KDE is that it seemed locked down when I first tried it in version 4. Settings were in odd places when they could be found at all, I was completely unable to customize my desktop to my satisfaction (they wanted a "unified experience" on the desktop, and fuck what I wanted to do), and there were all these *surprise!* features that got in the way more than they added to my experience, while others were so unintuitive that I'm not sure I could figure out what they were for even today. But as I said, I'm comfortable in a Gnome 2 environment, and KDE is the dark side of the moon in comparison.
                        Ehh... what? KDE has always been about the possibility to configure just about everything. The unified experience is what Gnome is going after.

                        Originally posted by Larian View Post
                        We did mess around with Phonon as well but to no effect. To my mind, on a fresh install, things like this should be detected automatically and made the default. I don't know why the audio wasn't piped correctly either, and no set of sliders, work in ALSA-mixer, or burning little effigies of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs solved the problem.
                        If you have multiple output sources then there's no possible way to define what is the wanted output. ALSA-mixer then again doesn't have anything to do with KDE and it shouldn't be used if you are running PulseAudio.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                          Example some people are also good at graphics and others with structure. Someone can spend a day doing an icon, where another a few hours. A whole day for an icon, means you sacrifice your life. KDE is a project with few workers, so getting supporters means a lot of work is done by those that are active and it can be inefficient and detrimental to one's life.
                          Icons have more to do with inspiration than actually doing it. It might take you 5 minutes or 10 days to get it right.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by asdx
                            File bug reports then, or even start learning how to fix them yourself, then contribute back.
                            Did both. But at some point you just loose hope. We're up to KDE 4.8, and still there are still some very basic and annoying bugs.
                            Yes, many of them reported!

                            Some developers are great, they reply on the same day, etc. But other bugs just die there.
                            And as I've said before, worst of all, I made a patch for a bug that has been there for years, and was very straightforward and it the patch got ignored.
                            So should I also be responsible for taking up maintaining that part of KDE, just because I don't want that bug?

                            At some point, you start wanting to use your computer, not just fixing it. Peter Penz does not say that, but I think he at least hints that he left linux -- wanna guess why?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Tiger_Coder View Post
                              Dolphin is the worst part of my KDE Desktop(I don't have installed all basic apps and some app I use like Chrome are not K'ed but mostly Ksofts). It crashed and crashed for no good reason since forever. I pray new main maintainer would make it better.

                              Anyway I read, heard lots of things about people bitching about KDE. As long as I feel my productivity and fun are best served by KDE, I am with it.
                              dolphin is the only thing I like about kde, much better than nautilus for example.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Looks like I'm a lucky guy, no bugs found here on my KDE 4.8

                                You should really read the original article, phoronix didn't mention some core elements.
                                There is a boring qtquick port scheduled for dolphin, plus the author doesn't really have time for what started as a pet project.

                                It's all written there, before the bitching against all DEs.

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