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KDE No Longer Competitive? Developer Calls It Quits

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  • Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    but go for it... I dont care... I know which one will win... kde is no opponent against gnome(shell) unity a bit, but then again its only used in one os on one distribution... that looses users right now... and had his biggest lost of users since it exist because of unity... so I dont see it have a change seperated with it alone... so gnome will (as I belive) win anyways but... with that ubuntu desition it will take much longer... but I can live with that... I just say that such problems ( a fight about the standard desktop (and if you dont have that, they will never use the same backends...) and even the the frontend is a problem) but whatever... ^^ go for it... you said maybe the same about gnome2 for 10 years and loosing market share with kde3 vs gnome2 each year... shurely also because of ubuntu... but still ubuntu did not change to kde.... but fedora switched from kde to gnome-shell as standard... so its clear for me where the journy is going...
    Jeez, man. You don't have to excel in proficiency in English to be understandable but you don't even adhere to basic inter-language grammar rules as starting sentences with big letters or not ending every (very short, by the way) sentence with an ellipsis. It really hurts to read that, try to put more effort in your posts.

    Originally posted by rainbyte View Post
    Gnome3 doesn't give me that posibility... Their users have to live with the gnome devs decisions... They can't change even the window buttons...
    Guys, what's with these ellipsis everywhere?!
    Last edited by m_gol; 06-28-2012, 09:20 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kraftman View Post
      Let's focus on Ubuntu which is the main desktop distribution. Ubuntu is in the best position to address things you mentioned, because it's developed at a single company which has QA and test farms that will pay off in the near future.
      Oh, don't get me started with Canonical's QA. What serious QA would accept putting into production an environment with 1 pixel wide grabbing areas for resizing windows?
      https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/160311
      And they still didn't manage to fix it completely. This is a pattern, actually. Bugs get ignored or the progress is very slow, to the point when a new release gets shipped and the reporter is asked to test it against a new release like the old one didn't matter (although officially supported). Or a fixed bug going back to an unfixed stage in the next Ubuntu version because someone forgot to re-apply the patch. Etc.

      Another long-standing issue:
      https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/484252
      which can make people wipe their whole pendrives because of improper wording and a misleading selection panel for devices to format.

      These were both GUI-only issues, completely fixable by Canonical. If we go beyond GUI, there is an ocean of new annoying bugs:
      https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/493645
      making settings for the delay before blanking the screen ineffective.

      Or this:
      https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/93847
      System monitor CPU reporting is useless because of its own overhead.

      Or when each Firefox upgrade wiped custom search settings:
      https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/428306
      Etc.

      Now, those ones might be not easily fixable by Canonical, maybe it's just an inherent problem with how Linux distributions are glued together from smaller parts which makes interactions buggy. I'll tell you something - users don't care who's to blame.

      But OK, let's go back to Canonical. Let's forget about things they don't control so tightly and focus on their newest in-house baby - Unity. Granted, now it's much more stable than it used to be (which proves, by the way, where Canonical has its QA... Users are beta-testers, basically). But, still, they designed a hell lot of new interfaces not inter-operating with the old ones, used by everyone. This makes installing external applications a huge PITA; they randomly lack their buttons in indicator panel (you have to manually white-list them from the console! Duh!), not all register correctly in the dock (or whatever it's called).

      But there is more. Canonical tries to imitate OS X GUI as much as they can, completely forgetting about paradigms. The global menu is a good example - in OS X it works because of an application-centered model. Linux GUIs are window based, though. Try opening GIMP and activating any of this windows except for the main one. Bye bye, global menu! You have to first activate the main window and only then go to menu. This is even more annoying as GIMP focuses not on the main window after exiting the menu making re-entering the menu very cumbersome. Global menu requires a special setup from installed applications, otherwise it doesn't work. Thus, Netbeans has its own window menus. They are, by the way, almost invisible because of some font color fuck-up for non-global menus.

      Or look how they manage multi-desktop setups. It's a 2x2 grid and applications treat it like that. It happens for me very often that an application containing a very large content (like an HD video) when unmaximized extends past the right and bottom edge of the active desktop. It seems like it's going out of screen but not really - it just extends to the bottom desktop! So annoying.

      And there are all these little bugs that just show lack of proper testing. Like compiz bugs that can lock a semi-transparent orange rectangle on the screen, a remnant of some GUI action that was interrupted and hasn't been properly cleared. Too bad if it locks your mouse, too! Sometimes even going to a text terminal (Ctrl+Alt+F1-F6) doesn't work. Or when mouse driver gets crazy and recognizes my left clicks as right until I right-click with my touchpad at least once. I also challenge you to try to drag a file and drop it in the browser when both Nautilus & Firefox are full screen. No way, dock just doesn't get what you try to achieve.

      And it's much better than it was in 11.04 or 11.10! You can only imagine how broken those releases were.

      To conclude, the polishness of Ubuntu GUI is nowhere near this of proprietary OSs. I know what I'm talking about, I've used this freaking OS as my main for 5 years now!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by m_gol View Post
        To conclude, the polishness of Ubuntu GUI is nowhere near this of proprietary OSs. I know what I'm talking about, I've used this freaking OS as my main for 5 years now!
        Canonical is just trying to enforce a desktop standard, because they have a big userbase now and they realize the need of uniformity.
        I'm sure that other companies will try to do the same, like Google is doing with Android (they have their own Linux standard).

        I know that open source software works that way. Anyone can produce things, but I would not like a company to decide instead of the community.
        What about if some company monopolizes the Linux desktop and begin to take all the important decisions?
        Even if that increases the userbase, it will be similar to the actual Windows vs. Linux marketshare situation, but with the same kernel.

        This is just the beginning. If Linux distros continue with this fragmentation thing, the situation will get worse.
        That's why we need uniformity, common standards and code sharing between projects.

        P/D: I'm sorry for the ellipsis, I didn't notice before.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
          That's probably selection bias as the linux people often know a little bit more about how stuff works so they can fix more themeselves...
          When I write "computer illiterate" then that is exactly what I mean. Except you think how to start Firefox using a desktop icon is Linux knowledge. One does not have to be a geek anymore to use a Linux desktop.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by m_gol View Post
            Jeez, man. You don't have to excel in proficiency in English to be understandable but you don't even adhere to basic inter-language grammar rules as starting sentences with big letters or not ending every (very short, by the way) sentence with an ellipsis. It really hurts to read that, try to put more effort in your posts.



            Guys, what's with these ellipsis everywhere?!
            I maybe will try to not use the "ellipsis" didnt know that word before I looked it up on a site, so I will maybe use more commatas instead of the ... .

            But about the big letters stuff, thats the first time someone cares about that in a english forem I saw . But maybe I did overdo it with the bad grammar and stuff, but on the other hand, I write here no letters to english teachers, I just "talk" about stuff... and at dont know 1-3 a´clock at the morning my english and grammar even goes worse it seems.

            But when I want to make a point and still be able to "talk" in a way someone can understand me (what seemed to not be the issue) I think I still go for it ^^

            To the customizablity of gnome-shell: First I find it funny that somebody talks about that they dont want to have a tablet as there desktop or something like that but prefers unity over gnome-shell, what was/is netbook/tablet ubuntu edition. Secondly I like that gnome-shell is by default very strict... that guaranties that you have a clean desktop, you cant have 1000 files on the desktop I even think its stupid to have icons there at all... because most time its under the applications anyway... starters there suck totaly and finding files with a fast search function or even folders and stuff is way better (in my opinion) but here you can easily show them, but I think its a good default to not show them. In the default gnome-shell is more not static but more standardised, thats a difference what do I mean with that.
            In gnome2 if you would have on your screen the clock exactly in the midle you use another bigger/smaller screen its not in the middle anymore... because it did not save possition 50% in the middle it saved 500 pixels from the left side or something like that. that sucked totaly between different screens selecting some stuff to keep exact position others tried to float but did not work, too. So you have a totaly standised very dynamic desktop (as example dynamic workplaces or dynamic menu thats way better than the static menu where you have a menu with 10 categories and 50 apps where most of the time you use 5-7 apps.
            And then from this very good defaults you have MORE possibilty to customise it with the extentions...

            I as user dont want to have to manage if I want starter xy on the panel be 2pixels more right or left or if its staticly or dynamicly placed there... I just want good defaults, I also know that there are people there are better in gui designes than me, they maybe not make all perfekt in 1-2 minor updates but they get pretty close if something really bothers me (which did not, only the removing of the file-search in the dash) then at least there are this extentions where solutions for that are there. thats btw the only thing I dont like right now about gnome-shell that they reverted that file/folder search... when thats activited you have nearly a perfekt desktop (good the empathy integration could be more nice but it works too) you search get all... you maximise all and its ok, even on my 23" I love it, maybe it does not work good if you have more than one monitor and want to work with more desktops... they also should mix their desktop with some other features... the project/homes was a nice idea. So its not perfect yet shure, but when I compare it against the old gnome2 its a big step in the right direction and even against unity its way more better.

            So my main point was that I somewhat agree to the stuff this kde-developer said... than somebody said that gnome-shell would suck even more that unity, that was the point I startet to say why I think its better. First I did not even say that gnome is or was better I just said that it did won, because of ubuntu, and kde only got used by some suse and kubuntu people... what was a minority, ok count in sidux but I think that distribution have also way less people using it than as example ubuntu. And then I said that ubuntu made that even worse, because you got some people that didnt like to change their habits they wanted to use gnome2 with minor releases for the next 50 years ^^ so gnome-shell did here loose some userbase, but with the unity which nearly nobody really prefered over gnome-shell and I did not see till now much people that really love unity but hate gnome-shell so the userbase again get splitted in 50/50... so now maybe really same omount of people use kde than gnome-shell or unity... (yes they dont share exactly 33% of the market and I did ignore the other smaller DE´s, but it comes close to that) so the main point here was that unity does not help that issue this kde-developer talked about, because even if gnomes not "winning" against kde... there are now maybe (if unity will really not die) for a long time 3 major desktops... that splits even more man-power (yes they share some stuff on some points but not all) and forks or projects that do basicly the same are not good in other fields... because its a waste of time and its not good here, and like the kde developer said, it will lead to even less or not more company support if you have to support 3 desktop environments if even 2 was a problem.

            unity does even hurt the gnome-movement more than if ubuntu would have switched to kde4 as new default... because then all gnome2-lovers would go away, now they get this semi-gnome feeling and maybe can arange with that bugs and ubuntu gets it to a state where its somewhat usable that takes more people away from gnome... not even because they choose too but because they use whatever is installed as default if its not totaly broken over a long time, and it will end like their upstart, what did sound like a good idea but never got the love it needed. Ubuntu often makes his own non-upstream shit... and that works not good most of the time because they are not invested enough to really force some projects... what was good stuff for the linux-community from them yes they did have a good gnome-2 distribution but other than that, all they did just only is there for ubuntu, their softwarecenter I did not see it somewhere else, upstart, this closed cloud thing... also ubuntu only... I would switch to fedora, installed it, if it would support (like ubuntu does) my usb soundcard I use with a usb-switch on all my pcs, because they are the best gnome-shell distribution but they also do most work on upstream stuff I like and care more about freedom. But thats another point, again my main point was that I agree with the sentences from this developer to a certain degree, but ubuntu made that problem even worse.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rainbyte View Post
              Canonical is just trying to enforce a desktop standard, because they have a big userbase now and they realize the need of uniformity.
              https://xkcd.com/927/

              Comment


              • The ship is sinking

                Estonia sunk in 1994. A modern titanic catastrophy. To no suprise this years akademy will be an Estonia incident.

                KDE news of the year:
                Nokia pulled the plug.
                Kubuntu was degraded to "community effort" because the developer burden from couldnt be justified.
                openSUSE cant keep up with release roadmaps because KDE is a mess.
                Digia is seeking "differentation" for Qt Commercial (open core business focusing on closed source for non-linux platoforms).

                And now:
                Developers quiting and fighting the hoarding KDE bugs is like the battle scenes of starship trooper. Total meltdown is imminent.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  Nokia pulled the plug.
                  Bullshit. Nokia is still funding Qt development. They cut jobs across the board, but they still employ a lot of Qt developers. ANd they can't pull the plug on Qt, not to mention KDE, since Qt is not an independent foundation with backing from many companies.

                  Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  Kubuntu was degraded to "community effort" because the developer burden from couldnt be justified.
                  Bullshit. They pulled the plug on everything but unity because they wanted to focus exclusively on unity. They don't even install Gnome Shell by default.

                  Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  openSUSE cant keep up with release roadmaps because KDE is a mess.
                  Bullshit. openSUSE can't keep up with the release roadmap because their build system hardware kept crashing and the gcc4.7 transition was such a mess. There were other problems as well, but KDE was not one of them.

                  Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  Digia is seeking "differentation" for Qt Commercial (open core business focusing on closed source for non-linux platoforms).
                  Bullshit. Didia pushes all of their patches upstream. They were a little late doing that for one release.

                  Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  Developers quiting
                  Bullshit. Developer, singular, quit. Developers quite projects all the time, and developers join projects all the time. And the developer in question did not have a problem with KDE, but with open-source software in general.

                  Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
                  fighting the hoarding KDE bugs is like the battle scenes of starship trooper.
                  Bullshit. Every desktop environment has bugs. I see plenty of complaints about gnome, KDE, and OsX bugs as well. Unless you have some specific numbers showing KDE has more bugs then you are just pulling this out of your ass.

                  Wow, that is impressive. You managed to make an entire post without one factually accurate statement. That takes a lot of work.

                  Comment


                  • KDE is by far my favorite desktop envirnment. It can be buggy on new releases, but by the time a couple stability updates are released, it's much better. Also, nepomuck is a drain and kde pim performs badly, but those can be disabled/removed in most distros. I use thunderbird in their place. In my experience, KDE is the only DE that can appeal to average windows users. People I've tried to convert to linux loved KDE and didn't get Gnome. I think KDE is ultimately linux's best hope for totally open linux in the mainstream. They just need more devs.

                    Comment


                    • I don't really get this.

                      What other Desktop Environments are making usability improvements that KDE (overall) is not making?

                      Windows 8 is an unmitigated user experience disaster with a boatload of functionality that is hidden and non-obvious.

                      OSX Mountain Lion is part 2 of making OSX more like iOS, dumbing down the desktop environment to make it "idiot friendly".

                      Gnome Shell/Unity/Whatever other crappy forks are making the same mistakes as both Windows 8 and OSX.

                      It seems to me that KDE is the only mainstream DE that will, in the future, be usable at all. Up to now, they haven't made any concessions to the user experience just because they wanted to be "modern" or "forward thinking". Also, since 4.4, KDE has gotten significantly better and more stable, in my opinion. The design has been cleaned up a lot, and little functionality that I frequently use has been cleaned up and sped up. I keep using KDE because it is getting better and better with each release, for me.

                      Comment


                      • strange guy that developer

                        I do not understand that guy. First he spends a lot of effort on KDE and than he intentionally tries to damage it by a nasty criticism. This is a behavior of some psycho ex-girlfriend and not of an adult man.

                        I started using Linux on desktop several months ago. If there wasn't KDE, I would probably newer been able to make the switch. Thank you very much to all KDE developers!

                        Comment


                        • Love this forum!

                          Ok, I just got onto the KDE boat, and I am also having problems, but all in all I love it. I read through this thread and I have to say, I joined this forum purely for the nasty talk between people.... I know that sounds jacked up and really, it is. It reminds me of other forums that I am on which have nothing to do with computers... I didn't think this kind of combination existed.


                          Glad to be here, continue the shit talk.

                          Comment


                          • As long as I feel my productivity and fun are best served by KDE, I am with it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leon55ia View Post
                              As long as I feel my productivity and fun are best served by KDE, I am with it.
                              +1


                              (and another 8 characters)

                              Comment


                              • Just recently it was announced that kwin gets a full-time developer. So some take off, others take over. I think KDE is really exciting especially now since the transition to qt5 brings so many new features.

                                And if i recall correctly, the biggest mess to untangle and rewrite was kwin to port it over to qt5 code. The other parts would be more straightforward work. So with that in mind the full time kwin dev sounds really even better.

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