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Microsoft Hosts: GNOME & Mono Festival of Love

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  • #16
    Just boycott MS which is just pure evil and crap company. There are just few good guys who're responsible for Vista and Metro. Thanks a lot for your hard work!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by robpvn View Post
      For one thing, the easy cross-platform compatibility means that Banshee, Pinta and Tomboy in fact work on Windows as well. So in effect they are also sponsoring application development for users of their own platform, even though us open source guys doing the work all run Linux. (I for one will not run Windows on my personal laptop simply because I see no point in it when I can get something better for free.)
      A pity that compatibility goes only one way. Mono-based stuff will run on .NET for Windows, the opposite is not true.

      As for the age old concern that Microsoft has some sinister plan to sue everybody using it, I simply don't believe it.
      Age old? You say it as if something had changed during this "age". Instead, we're still here with Microsoft doing all they can to kill Linux and suing the hell out of anyone who tries to use it commercially.

      To begin with, they long ago made a promise not sue like Oracle just did over Java, and they committed C# to the ECMA, which was never done with Java.
      To be more precise, they submitted a very limited subset of a seven-years old version of the .NET framework for "standardization". Applications written in that obsolete subset of the .NET framework can't even display a GUI. Everything else is not standardized, and is not covered by Microsoft's "promise".

      That said, the Google lawsuit did "poison" the use of Java in open source projects IMHO. If I were a hardware manufacturer I would think twice before using Java in my product now.

      Beyond that, even if they were two-timing doublecrossing bastards
      There's no "if". We know what they are. Ask tomtom, sendo, sun, b&n, netscape about them. Or any Android manufacturer on the planet. They're even trying to prevent installing non-Microsoft OSes in standard PCs, what more evidence do we need.

      So yes, Microsoft is a big multinational company whose main goal is to make more money. But being friendly with Mono can only help them.
      Yes, that's for sure, we 100% agree here.

      Comment


      • #18
        Still causious

        From:
        http://www.suse.com/company/press/20...community.html

        "The agreement grants Xamarin a broad, perpetual license to all intellectual property covering Mono, MonoTouch, Mono for Android and Mono Tools for Visual Studio."
        Can we get to see this license to make sure it is truly perpetual and not just marketed as perpetual?
        Can we get to know what exactly this intellectual property is?

        "Xamarin will [] assume stewardship of the Mono open source community project."
        What happens when someone takes ownership of Xamarin, as was done with Ximian/SuSe/Novell,
        and as a result takes ower the stewardship of Mono?
        Would a community fork be possible or is the intellectual property making this impossible?

        I really think these questions need to be answered before considering trusting the Microsoft Mono partnership.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by peppepz View Post
          A pity that compatibility goes only one way. Mono-based stuff will run on .NET for Windows, the opposite is not true.
          Strictly speaking this is untrue. Only applications using Windows-specific stacks that are not implemented in Mono will not run. Granted, that's probably a majority, but this still has no bearing on the issue of why Microsoft would want to be friendly to Mono.



          Age old? You say it as if something had changed during this "age". Instead, we're still here with Microsoft doing all they can to kill Linux and suing the hell out of anyone who tries to use it commercially.
          Not a lot has changed, no, except the chance of Microsoft suing over the use of Mono getting even smaller.

          To be more precise, they submitted a very limited subset of a seven-years old version of the .NET framework for "standardization". Applications written in that obsolete subset of the .NET framework can't even display a GUI. Everything else is not standardized, and is not covered by Microsoft's "promise".
          Still more than Java, as we have seen.

          That said, the Google lawsuit did "poison" the use of Java in open source projects IMHO. If I were a hardware manufacturer I would think twice before using Java in my product now.
          Honestly I don't think Java's position has been that much weakened given that Oracle lost. It has merely strengthened C#'s credibility.


          There's no "if". We know what they are. Ask tomtom, sendo, sun, b&n, netscape about them. Or any Android manufacturer on the planet. They're even trying to prevent installing non-Microsoft OSes in standard PCs, what more evidence do we need.
          Which is part of the reason I think that having open source alternatives for their products is valuable, so that those who have invested on Windows platforms have an opportunity to leave if the screws get tightened. They may be backstabbing bastards, but their hands are pretty much tied on the Mono issue.

          Yes, that's for sure, we 100% agree here.
          Which quite nicely answers the question I was replying to about why Microsoft NERD agreed to host it.

          I really wish we could all just live and let live on this issue. I believe this will work out well in the end, others believe it won't. We'll see in twenty years who has guessed right, in the meantime people can continue using what they want do to their stuff.

          Comment


          • #20
            Guardian might be on something and why MS would host this event.

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...urce-ecosystem

            With MS hosting this Mono event, even I don't think MS are going to attack Mono stuff any time soon.
            But I do think helping Mono is helping MS. Regardless of what they may or may not do with any legal suits, .NET is an MS standard. They call the shots. They write the rules of the game.

            If we want to be free of them, and others like them, we need to have own free rules and games.

            Mono strikes me the same as WISE before it.
            http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/07...s_how_ms_used/

            We know MS and standards. They know the most important thing is to control standards, then they can always be the best(only?) implementation. They will always have the head start on anything new in the standard, announcing it at the same as a implementation. Worse, to be compatible, we have to match the implementation not the standard. The normal "code is law/bug-for-bug" and "chasing tail lights" arguments. ;-)

            If some Metro Mono announcement is made at this event, I'm going to laugh as it all beginning to look quite desperate to me. Especially with the Ubuntu/Debian Mono packager comments on how Mono is going on reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/c...tu_ama/c4t0tcn

            I don't think ill of all Mono people, many are clearly very talented. I've even got some Mono friend who think I have a foil hat on the issue. I just think they need to be a whole lot more cynical and not be blinded by tech they want to play with. MS especially, but also Apple and Google are not out to be our friends. They want us to help them promote their standards when really we should be making and promoting our own if we wish to be free.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by peppepz View Post
              Then you haven't tried other IDEs. As you've said yourself, Netbeans does that and is better than Visual Studio. Also try QT Creator.

              I tried the 'most known' IDEs (Eclipse, Anjuta, Netbeans, Visual Studio, ValaIDE, monodevelop) and none of them are as good as Visual Studio itself. Monodevelop comes close but it would need a WPF editor (and mono would need the WPF components).

              As for QT creator: Does it support other components? (like gtk2 or gtk3?).
              Pure bullshit. Java is much faster than Mono. Not a bit faster, but A LOT faster. In fact, it's the third fastest language after C and FORTRAN. And unlike C#, it's really cross platform.
              http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u3...re-fastest.php
              nice try, have you ever seen real Java applications? There are two hints that you are using one: The GUI looks bad and is bad designed (I slowly get the feeling that Java developers in general have no clue on how to design a GUI), it uses far too much RAM and it's slow. (I did some 'benchmarks' myself back in the day...had to decide on which language to use a year ago: C# or Java, one of the 'biggest' tasks was to get a big XML file and get it into a database...maybe I did it wrong (I consulted some Java devs at the company I worked at during the time, they tweaked a few things which got me ~10 seconds) but the C# application did the same thing in 3/4 of the time.

              Maybe they got better in version 7 (that'd explain the result of the website). I've to take a closer look at what that 'benchmark' does and how it was implemented.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                nice try, have you ever seen real Java applications? There are two hints that you are using one: The GUI looks bad and is bad designed.
                The "No True Scotsman" stuff is REALLY LAME!

                YES, I see "real Java applications" all the time. They are used EVERY DAY to run ALL MANNER of web applications.

                "The GUI looks bad and is bad designed"

                If you think this is a property of THE LANGUAGE USED TO IMPLEMENT AN APPLICATION

                You are 100% IGNORANT!!!

                ""The GUI looks bad and is bad designed"

                I guess that would mean that iTunes and MS Word are all JAVA applications, according to YOUR theory!

                "maybe I did it wrong "

                AH YES!!! The SELF APPOINTED EXPERT who DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING!!!

                FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ANYWAY!
                Last edited by frantaylor; 06-05-2012, 09:47 AM.

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                • #23
                  gnome and mono... balmer's two best friends.

                  gnome, because it makes people hate linux.
                  mono, because it gives ms power over linux.

                  Put the two together and you have a serious problem.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                    You can call Microsoft evil all you want (I don't like them either to be honest), that doesn't change two simple facts:

                    1. Visual Studio is the most enhanced IDE as of today. There is nothing better. (GUI design, MSDN, ctrl + space for preview of (all) possible variables/functions/classes/namespaces [I've yet to see at least one IDE aside from VS and NetBeans that is able to do that])

                    2. C# is multi-platform, easy to use and still manages to give you a nice performance boost (compared to other languages like Java (slow, big thing) or C++ (too complex for GUI applications and if you don't know exactly what you are doing you get tons of memory leaks)). Also the documentation is pretty good.
                    1. I use both VS as well as Eclipse at work and in my Opinion Eclipse (for Java) is much better than VS for C#. Ctrl+Space has worked perfectly in Eclipse for ages...

                    2. C# is okay as a language (much better than all that dynamically typed stuff) but I disagree that it is much faster than Java. Speed is pretty much similar there.

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                    • #25
                      Mono is not faster than Sun HotSpot. It is much faster than Dalvik, and it is comparable to HotSpot. It uses about an order of magnitude less RAM than Hotspot though. And Gtk# is much more responsive by design than Swing.

                      I don't know about HotSpot versus Microsoft.NET because I am not interested in non-Free frameworks.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robpvn View Post
                        Strictly speaking this is untrue. Only applications using Windows-specific stacks that are not implemented in Mono will not run. Granted, that's probably a majority,
                        No, strictly speaking this is mathematically true. Mono is a limited subset of .NET. Therefore, in general, an application working in .NET will not work in Mono. In particular, however, certain applications written in .NET will work on Mono. Not that I've ever seen a .NET application that wasn't explicitly designed for Mono run on Linux.

                        but this still has no bearing on the issue of why Microsoft would want to be friendly to Mono.
                        Because they can say "see, everything written for Linux works on Windows too, and better". Not that I care: I only replied because your statement about "easy cross-platform compatibility" might make people believe that there is full compatibility between .NET and Mono. There isn't.

                        Not a lot has changed, no, except the chance of Microsoft suing over the use of Mono getting even smaller.
                        You mean that the fact the Microsoft is suing everyone and his dog over trivial patents if they use Linux makes "the chance of Microsoft suing over the use of Mono smaller"?

                        Still more than Java, as we have seen.
                        I don't know what you've seen, I saw that Java has a GPL reference implementation, and that every aspect of Java is standardized through the JCP. Where can I download the testsuite for C# 4.0, so I can test that my independent implementation of C# is compatible with the standard?

                        Anyway Java doesn't matter in this discussion - we're talking about the argument ".NET is standardized and Microsoft promised not to sue", which is not true. "A limited subset of the 2005 version of the .NET framework is standardized and Microsoft promised not to sue if you only use it" is true.

                        Honestly I don't think Java's position has been that much weakened given that Oracle lost. It has merely strengthened C#'s credibility.
                        Well, I don't think most people have the resources to withstand a lawsuit against a company the size of Oracle. I'll bet most companies would probably not use Java, or license it (which is not acceptable from a free software POV), rather than taking the risk. Oracle destroyed the reputation of open source friendliness that Sun had built over years.

                        That said, the credibility of something isn't affected by the credibility of something else, so I disagree with your second statement.

                        I really wish we could all just live and let live on this issue.
                        Why, everybody lives and lets anyone else live in the FOSS world. It's Microsoft that is continuously trying to kill free software development and Linux in particular; good luck running Mono when your bootloader only boots Microsoft-signed stuff.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by directhex View Post
                          Mono is not faster than Sun HotSpot. It is much faster than Dalvik, and it is comparable to HotSpot. It uses about an order of magnitude less RAM than Hotspot though.
                          If by "comparable" you mean "three times slower", then we agree.

                          http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u3...a&lang2=csharp

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by peppepz View Post
                            If by "comparable" you mean "three times slower", then we agree.

                            http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u3...a&lang2=csharp
                            Yeah, I do. By the same token, Python is sixty five times slower than Mono. That's "incomparable" kinds of numbers.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by peppepz View Post
                              "A limited subset of the 2005 version of the .NET framework is standardized
                              There's a limit to how much lying I think is reasonable.

                              ECMA 335 is on its fifth edition, from December 2010, covering aspects of .NET 4.0

                              ECMA 334 is on its fourth edition, from June 2006, covering aspects of .NET 3.5

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Yey, Gnome! Go use it, Linux people. It's good for you. Hanging around with the right friends who always have your best interests at heart.

                                Someone PLEASE kill Gnome.

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