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GNOME Is Still A Ways Off From 10% Goal

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  • #61
    Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
    The "language purity" part is not neccessary true. For example, the imported word club/kurabu/クラブ has a kanji representation: 倶楽部. The problem is more that they import a lot of words, and fitting them into the existing readings of kanji is difficult. In some media at least, the "English" reading is used for the Japanese word, e.g. some Tokyo Jihen Albums like Variety/娯楽 or Adult/大人. Also, there's no strict "katakana word = English" / "word imported from English = katakana", though the second part is often true.
    That 'kanji' representation has the exact same function as the kana (like in imported words in Chinese), theoretically you could pick any three kanji expressing that sound. It's still a foreign word, just not written in a foreign script only for the sake of representation. Fact is that every new word is expressed using kana or that showy ateji manner. Only older stuff (like 'English') is really represented with Japanese words. And even there I'd assume there's some level of atejiness involved.

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    • #62
      How about ハメる and ググる? Two verbs, the first one purely Japanese afaik, and the second imported from "google". Both conjugate the same way, the past for ググる is ググった. Does that look like "language purity"? They import lots of words, the problem, as I tried to say, lies in the representation, and katakana are usually best suited for them.

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      • #63
        The article poking at Gnome hubris is dead on right. Six years ago the founders set themselves a goal of being popular, and having failed to do that they're now taking their toys and going home, trying to crawl into a tiny niche. Gnome 3 is the desktop environment for an insignificant % of people running a Linux desktop on a single output low resolution touchscreen device.

        I expected spreadgnome.org to be a not work for safe site, actually.

        My distro independent experience with gnome3 was being exposed to it around last summer as an Arch rolling upgrade. I was running Arch at work on my desktop. Normally I like cutting edge shiny, but that experience cured me of the habit. As I googled for solutions to that self-inflicted pain I quickly realized the gnome3 community attitude is "our way or the highway." I quickly 'upgraded' that machine to Ubuntu 10.04, which is what it will remain from now on.

        I'm not the only one hating gnome3. For every user satisfied with the experience I can find 10 others who have either switched to KDE or are clinging desperately to gnome2. The numerous Gnome3 problems have all been pointed out endlessly. For me the biggest issue is not running on latest ATI hardware. With ATI having the best price/performance hardware several years running combined with having a lock on the cheapest gear available at Best Buy (with low end Fusion) that's a bigger issue than anyone at Gnome realizes.

        If their goal really is widespread acceptance, that is.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
          The "language purity" part is not neccessary true. For example, the imported word club/kurabu/クラブ has a kanji representation: 倶楽部. The problem is more that they import a lot of words, and fitting them into the existing readings of kanji is difficult. In some media at least, the "English" reading is used for the Japanese word, e.g. some Tokyo Jihen Albums like Variety/娯楽 or Adult/大人. Also, there's no strict "katakana word = English" / "word imported from English = katakana", though the second part is often true.
          If language purity isn't the point why then have two syllabaries composed of the same kana?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by liam View Post
            If language purity isn't the point why then have two syllabaries composed of the same kana?
            We also have two glyphs for each letter. They help to clarify writing. Do they help keep sentence and name beginnings pure? Do katakana help to keep Japanese pure, even though they import words like they're going out of fashion?

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            • #66
              Linux market share steadily increasing since summer 2011

              Short after gnome 3 was released, the marketshare of Linux started a rising trend (I don't say that this is gnome 3 fault, I just have to mention Gnome somewhere because this thread is about the gnome marketshare actually )

              According to a NetMarketShare report it was in December 2011 at 1.41 %, while it was only 1.00 % in Dec 2010.
              (article about that: Desktop Linux increases presence)

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              • #67
                Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                We also have two glyphs for each letter. They help to clarify writing. Do they help keep sentence and name beginnings pure? Do katakana help to keep Japanese pure, even though they import words like they're going out of fashion?
                That's a bad comparison, imho. For one thing the distinction is optional.
                We can use only set or another and still be understood . The other thing is that we don't use one set of glyphs for one set of words and another for other words.
                Frankly I'm not sure why you are arguing this point. Japanese ethnocentrism is well documented. Now they aren't the only ethnocentric culture (doesn't every culture feel they are especially deserving? it's human nature and I'd be surprised if it were an different) but they feel it more strongly than most.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by liam View Post
                  Frankly I'm not sure why you are arguing this point. Japanese ethnocentrism is well documented.
                  And I am not sure why you're arguing that normally using one kind of glyphs (which weren't invented for foreign words) indicates some kind of "language purity". If they wanted to keep their language "pure" they could go all French-like and ban foreign words (and if they wanted to keep it pure without quotes, they should never have met the Chinese).

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                    And I am not sure why you're arguing that normally using one kind of glyphs (which weren't invented for foreign words) indicates some kind of "language purity". If they wanted to keep their language "pure" they could go all French-like and ban foreign words (and if they wanted to keep it pure without quotes, they should never have met the Chinese).
                    For one thing, I am basing this on what my gf's japanese professor (who is japanese, so presumably has some knowledge of this beyond knowing japanese) who knows the language well enough to teach it at the advanced university level (which means he must also have some knowledge of its history as well). Forgive me if I take his word (and my minor knowledge of japanese history, ergo their ethnocentrism) over yours.
                    Additionally, the French are the French, and they are "special" even if they go out of their way to be so
                    Besides, the French effort hasn't met with much success since the tech words seem to be used still (http://electronlibre.info).

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Fenrin View Post
                      Short after gnome 3 was released, the marketshare of Linux started a rising trend (I don't say that this is gnome 3 fault, I just have to mention Gnome somewhere because this thread is about the gnome marketshare actually )

                      According to a NetMarketShare report it was in December 2011 at 1.41 %, while it was only 1.00 % in Dec 2010.
                      (article about that: Desktop Linux increases presence)
                      Interesting, at the very least it can help dispel some of the doom and gloom being thrown about. This arguing, whether justified or not, has at the very least not hurt Linux's creditability on the desktop, such as it has.

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                      • #71
                        I honestly can't see any of current Linux desktops ever reaching 10% market share. They had their chances when KDE3 was stable, when GNOME2 was stable. Those had all the bases covered, GNOME2 in particular was that retarded "open file" dialogue aside the best, stablest, simplest and most functional desktop around. Now with GNOME3 (aka tablet for desktops) and KDE4 (aka clusterfuck insanity full power) it has all gone downhill big time. Keyword is stability. Both GNOME3 devs and KDE4 devs apparently think that change for sake of change is a good idea. Especially the latter. None of KDE4 promises have materialised.

                        After so many years as Linux user/contributor I've grown tired of this. I stopped contributing, now I'm considering to go FreeBSD for ports and stability. The 10% free desktop market share will come when some group actually has a clear vision, code quality and consistence. Thus, I assume Haiku OS will take the crown in 2-3 years in a totally unexpected surge in usage because Windows 8 is tablet oriented, GNOME3 is tablet oriented, KDE4 doesn't know what it is and OS X has started to resemble iOS. Others? No chance. Unless a wild BSD variant appears with in-house desktop enviroment that they also plan to support for years with consistent UI (Microsoft & Apple recipe to success).

                        Hell, I'd go as far as pronounce the bazaar model dead and cathedral won after all.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by korpenkraxar View Post
                          Yes, Gnome 3 is far from perfect but many things are nice and interesting. The performance of the Clutter/Mutter/Metacity/Gnome Shell UI blows Kwin/Plasma out of the water. KDE often feels unbelievably sluggish in comparison. The Javascript extensions in Gnome 3 are awesome and remind me of the good old dockapps more than the plasmoids ever did. Bluetooth, Wifi management and Volume controls are much more convenient than any implementation I have seen in KDE. KDE sure has other strenghts, such as KIO slaves, a much better file dialog and Dolphin is far better than Nautilus in all respects that I can think of.
                          In my 13 years of using Linux on the desktop I never found Gnome to be as fast or Stable as KDE, from my 166mhz Pentium1 with 32mb ram to my current 6 core Phenom2 with 8gb ram. I always liked Gnome over KDE as a Desktop and look and feel until the around KDE 3.4 and Gnome dumbing down everything. But for me KDE was always the faster and more stable DE compared to Gnome.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by daedaluz View Post
                            After so many years as Linux user/contributor I've grown tired of this. I stopped contributing, now I'm considering to go FreeBSD for ports and stability.
                            I see nothing wrong with going FreeBSD, but doing so because of GNOME/KDE??? Linux has nothing to do with Gnome or KDE other than that these environments run on Linux (AND on the BSD's). It's not as if FreeBSD has a native desktop environment. Your logic escapes me. Also, from what I gather XFCE seems very stable in the way it operates, maybe you should give it a try.

                            Originally posted by daedaluz View Post
                            Thus, I assume Haiku OS will take the crown in 2-3 years in a totally unexpected surge in usage because Windows 8 is tablet oriented, GNOME3 is tablet oriented, KDE4 doesn't know what it is and OS X has started to resemble iOS.
                            As a huge Haiku fan I would love this but reality is a different thing, Haiku has an awful hard time attracting developers both for the OS and even more so for applications. I was hoping that we'd see more developers start flocking around Haiku after the R1 alpha or through the 'Google Summer of Code' participations. Sadly it seems more and more long time developers are finding less time to work on Haiku while hardly no new developers join the ranks. One positive thing though is the successful drive to hire a full-time programmer on a longer basis as done with mmlr, if this can be done continously and perhaps even on a broader level (as in more than one programmer working full-time) then it will help Haiku immensily. Unfortunatley that doesn't help the near non-existant interest in developing applications for Haiku, pretty much all we have now are ports and even those are few and generally old versions.

                            Originally posted by daedaluz View Post
                            Hell, I'd go as far as pronounce the bazaar model dead and cathedral won after all.
                            Lolwut? Based upon desktop penetration? An area where A) Microsoft holds a massive monopoly fueled by Windows being pre-installed since forever. B) There's no money to be made due to 'A' and also that selling support in this area is very difficult. Even Apple seems to have given up the desktop and is now focusing on it's devices.

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                            • #74
                              After so many years as Linux user/contributor I've grown tired of this.
                              If you were concerned about 'stability' then why are you bothering to compare FreeBSD with anything other then Redhat (and clones)? Those are the closest functional equivalents.
                              I don't know what exactly is the deal with people on these forums.. but this stuff should be very obvious: If you are upset by things changing all the time then don't change things all the time.
                              I know where I work we just finished migrating the last of the AS4 systems and we do not have any AS6 systems deployed yet.

                              The only people self-delusional enough to promote very new versions of software as 'stable' and 'production ready' are Canonical. I also think that most people here bitching, especially the KDE fanboys, couldn't tell the difference between Gnome 3 and Unity.. but that is a different subject.

                              If you decided to ignore the hype and follow good senses then you would be on CentOS right now and you will continue to receive security updates for Gnome 2.x desktop well into 2017. Long after FreeBSD would of switched away from Gnome 2.x completely..

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                                I see nothing wrong with going FreeBSD, but doing so because of GNOME/KDE???

                                As a huge Haiku fan I would love this but reality is a different thing, Haiku has an awful hard time attracting developers both for the OS and even more so for applications.

                                Lolwut? Based upon desktop penetration?
                                I've grown irritated with the way whole GNU bullshit operates. Everything is done in hackish solutions.

                                Not many people know that project exists, neither do many people that NetBSD beats FreeBSD in performance in some instances and FreeBSD beats Linux in many. Number of developers doesn't collerate with quality.

                                It's a good example what happens when focus doesn't exist and improvements are hacks.

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