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More Linux Kernel Patches To Mimic Windows

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DanL View Post
    I think you have it backwards. Why can't MS actually follow the hardware standard as defined so that if it works with Windows, it should work with other OS's?
    A) They don't know how to follow and/or don't care about the standard
    B) They purposefully don't follow the standard so that other OS's break and look bad on hardware only tested with Windows
    C) A combo of the first two.
    D) Microsoft doesn't write a majority of the drivers, the hardware manufacturers.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by locovaca View Post
      D) Microsoft doesn't write a majority of the drivers, the hardware manufacturers.
      You don't think MS writes the Windows "kernel" code to deal with ACPI and ASPM?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DanL View Post
        I think you have it backwards. Why can't MS actually follow the hardware standard as defined so that if it works with Windows, it should work with other OS's?
        A) They don't know how to follow and/or don't care about the standard
        B) They purposefully don't follow the standard so that other OS's break and look bad on hardware only tested with Windows
        C) A combo of the first two.
        Yes that's right my bad..mornings aren't my thing

        MS doesn't like any standards but their own...and didn't they help draft the PCIe specs to begin with? The hardware standards are out there for all OS's to work with and not just Windows

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DanL View Post
          You don't think MS writes the Windows "kernel" code to deal with ACPI and ASPM?
          They write the API/ABI that driver writers must use when interacting with the Windows kernel

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Drago View Post
            Two example, for my new laptop ThinkPad x120e, the hardware is fine, but BIOS causes Linux to hang at boot. This only happens if I entered the BIOS setup, or booting windows, and then restart to Linux. I have to turn it off, and then back on to boot in Linux. I mainly use it on my desk with external display,keyboard and mouse. The freaking thing doesn't have Wake on keyboard press, although it has one powered while off usb port. The lid have to stay opened all the time.
            These two examples I believe can be easily fixed, if one had the BIOS sources.
            These could just as easily be OS bugs rather than BIOS bugs.


            Originally posted by DeepDayze View Post
            Better yet why not provide documentation to the Linux developers who'll then gladly write a driver for the device and maintain it.
            Sadly this isn't the case. It takes a very skilled developer to write device drivers especially for complex hardware. In most cases where documentation is available no one steps up to write a driver unless the manufacturer does. Even when the manufacturer does provide open source drivers, in many cases the driver isn't accepted due to coding style, etc.

            Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
            But I do like the idea of keeping a list of manufs. that have been naughty or nice.. Just about everything works under Linux whether the manuf. supports it or not, the real question is about how well it works...

            Everything can be fine and dandy for months and then a company comes up with a stupid idea like nVidia Optimus, and then it just doesn't work right and probably won't for years and people need to know before they go buying hardware.. I've been using Linux for almost a decade now and I *almost* made the mistake of buying an nVidia Optimus laptop, one of the ones without the hardware switch... Simply because I wasn't following laptop hardware that closely at the time..
            There's nothing secret about Optimus. The only reason it's not supported on Linux is that it requires piles and piles of work in the X server to make it work which no manufacturer can justify considering the size of the Linux desktop market share. Anyone with a decent knowledge of X and GPUs could write the code, but so far few people have stepped up. Microsoft wrote a lot of the graphics infrastructure in windows that makes this kind of thing possible.

            Originally posted by DanL View Post
            You don't think MS writes the Windows "kernel" code to deal with ACPI and ASPM?
            Microsoft didn't support ASPM at a high level until Windows 7 IIRC. The bug only exists because Linux was an early adopter of ASPM. The ASPM "regression" fix was just to leave the ASPM registers as set by the bios which is what windows probably did in versions prior to those that supported ASPM. A lot of bios vendors enabled ASPM so it would work as long as the OS didn't mess with it. It hardly seems like the hw manufacturers' fault.

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            • #21
              Backporting?

              Any word of these patches being backported to older kernels?

              Thanks!

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              • #22
                My proposal is for enthusiasts, like me, who are tired of bullshit.
                My proposal is that instead of purchasing hardware from vendors just because they have a good name that you should instead purchase your hardware from vendors that test and support Linux being installed on them, as well as having a good name. Linux has to mimic Windows because that is what vendors provide support and testing for. They are setup with the expectation that that is all you will ever have to deal with.


                That way you don't have to deal with the bullshit your tired of dealing with. It instead provides financial incentive for somebody else more effectively pursue solutions.. like fixing driver bugs and such.

                I always built my own desktops, but my last 3 laptops never had Windows installed on them. They shipped from the factory with Linux. And before you go off and complain about the smaller selection of hardware... realize that I never had issues like you are describing.

                Shame HW makers toe the Microsoft line when designing their devices. Why can't they make hardware that will work with ALL OS's not just Windows?
                Because they don't have too. Nobody is paying them to care.

                Why should they? What possible reason?

                There is no financial reward for doing it. Linux users do not seem to have any problem cobbling together a system from random bits and pieces and then cussing to each other on forums..

                Dell and HP at various points tried selling Linux hardware. These major OEMs are some of the few groups of people that major ODMs and chipset manufacturers actually listen to. They have clout, spend huge amounts of money, and if they want something then it happens. But you know what? Linux users piss and moan that all the possible combinations and options and models don't have Linux then they go out and purchase Windows systems anyways.


                So now Dell and HP don't sell Linux systems anymore, except for workstations... a market were people actually purchase Linux systems.
                like:
                http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...cision-m4600-n

                And these same Linux users are tired with their cobbled together systems nowadays just go out and purchase Apple laptops.

                Go figure.

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                • #23
                  hail, Lenovo!

                  damn, i'm glad i've chosen Lenovo laptop for my girlfriend, and without Windows© on it, luckily. and it costed twice(!) as low compared to hardware with similar specs in my favorite local shops. ASPM worked great pre2.6.38, after and looks like it will work later (this is exactly the laptop with Atheros networking hw in it).

                  a friend of hers needs laptop, i think i know what i will recommend, maybe even the same model. looks like HP, Toshiba, and for some degree, IBM and Dell are viable options too. everything else are just crap factories with rare exceptions.

                  Originally posted by liam View Post
                  Wow.
                  I had no idea. I imagined that since Intel is a member of the PCISIG, and a major producer of system components that they would be on top of this.
                  I imagine the cause of these problems was this http://www.pcisig.com/specifications...2009-08-20.pdf. Once they made it optional they opened the door to hell (via the hot air coming from everyones pc).
                  more shame for Intel. with them being pretty much main initiator of ACPI and PCI-E creation, you would expect their hardware to have perfect energy-saving capabilities but no. of course, this maybe a consequence of their shitty software and strange development practices.

                  one thing that pissed me off recently is that their employees are against adding PPPoE support into connman and, subsequently, MeeGo. which is fuckng bullshit, since there are entire countries where you can have connectivity only via PPPoE most of the time, and while using a portable device you really will not go around with shitty SoHo-router in addition, unless you're retarded.

                  Originally posted by agd5f View Post
                  Microsoft didn't support ASPM at a high level until Windows 7 IIRC. The bug only exists because Linux was an early adopter of ASPM. The ASPM "regression" fix was just to leave the ASPM registers as set by the bios which is what windows probably did in versions prior to those that supported ASPM. A lot of bios vendors enabled ASPM so it would work as long as the OS didn't mess with it. It hardly seems like the hw manufacturers' fault.
                  too true. this is the work of BIOS, after all. to configure that stuff. but again, with all that crap in most of the BIOSes, no wonder kernel devs don't trust them by default.

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                  • #24
                    It's funny. Reading the previous post, if I got it right, it turns out that the "works for Windows" argument from BIOS manufacturers was actually that Microsoft developers had already taken their own care for this issue instead of relying on what the BIOS pretends about ASPM... So in the end it's "any OS maker" against the "careless BIOS manufacturers", right? We're all in the same boat in the end.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by VinzC View Post
                      It's funny. Reading the previous post, if I got it right, it turns out that the "works for Windows" argument from BIOS manufacturers was actually that Microsoft developers had already taken their own care for this issue instead of relying on what the BIOS pretends about ASPM... So in the end it's "any OS maker" against the "careless BIOS manufacturers", right? We're all in the same boat in the end.
                      Microsoft has board makers do this stuff to make other operating systems not work quite right. Then they tweak Windows to work around all of the mines they have set.

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