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  • NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

    Phoronix: NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

    Dan Williams is announcing the release of NetworkManager 0.9.2, which is coming shortly after the release of NetworkManager 0.8.6. Dan also notes several interesting features in the pipeline for NetworkManager 0.9.4...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTAxMzk

  • #2
    Note that NetworkManager is kind of part of the 'desktop infrastructure' / 'plumbing' club; it's not really GNOME-centric. Yes, it is extremely common to see nm-applet running on a gnome desktop, but then it's also quite common on KDE4, and even Xfce. It's in that category of DE-agnostic middleware with PulseAudio and Mesa. Networking, sound, and graphics...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
      Note that NetworkManager is kind of part of the 'desktop infrastructure' ... It's in that category of DE-agnostic middleware with PulseAudio...
      The first thing I do after installing is "apt-get remove network-manager pulseaudio". And I'm much happier for it. Both network and sound are now stable on all my machines. Dan shouldn't be drinking so many of those pink cocktails. And I've never been quite sure what pills Lennart is on.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
        The first thing I do after installing is "apt-get remove network-manager pulseaudio". And I'm much happier for it. Both network and sound are now stable on all my machines. Dan shouldn't be drinking so many of those pink cocktails. And I've never been quite sure what pills Lennart is on.
        You should also recompile your kernel at each boot, after all removing default stuff and criticizing it makes you so macho, and while you're at it, don't forget to write your own OS, which would of course be better than those stupid peoples work - like that of Lennart - anyone knows you're so much smarter.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by cl333r View Post
          You should also recompile your kernel at each boot, after all removing default stuff and criticizing it makes you so macho, and while you're at it, don't forget to write your own OS, which would of course be better than those stupid peoples work - like that of Lennart - anyone knows you're so much smarter.
          As much as possible, I try to stick to defaults. I take the pragmatic approach. And in general, Pulseaudio and NetworkManager are the only packages that pragmatism directs me to remove. Network Manager is nice for laptops & netbooks. But far more trouble than it's worth for desktops. What Pulseaudio is good for, I'm not sure. The best answer I've gotten from others is that it adds desirable features to sound hardware so ancient that even I don't have a testbed for it. (Simultaneous input from multiple apps.) And also for sound software that doesn't include its own volume control. (Though I'm not sure what that would be.) Near as I can tell, Pulseaudio is all pain for no gain. It's buggy as hell.
          Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011, 12:30 AM.

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          • #6
            Thanks for the correct spelling of Smörgåsbord! /The Swede

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            • #7
              As much as possible, I try to stick to defaults. I take the pragmatic approach. And in general, Pulseaudio and NetworkManager are the only packages that pragmatism directs me to remove. Network Manager is nice for laptops & netbooks. But far more trouble than it's worth for desktops.
              As long as your distro isn't shit then Network-manager is fine for desktops. Either you just leave it alone and never touch it and just let it do it's job... or if you have special requirements then you go ahead and manually configure your interfaces like you should. Either way Network-Manager can handle it just fine.


              What Pulseaudio is good for, I'm not sure.
              It makes it possible to have kick-ass audio for Linux. It makes it possible to manage audio I/O easily and configure your hardware in a sane manner. It makes it possible to migrate audio transparently from one device to another and combine multiple audio outputs easily. Also it enables network transparent audio to go along with remote applications and other such things.

              The best answer I've gotten from others is that it adds desirable features to sound hardware so ancient that even I don't have a testbed for it.
              Hardly.

              Modern hardware does not have hardware mixing, typically. It's actually makes your hardware more expensive with little benefit. If you want to have hardware mixing then you have to go out of your way and spend more money and often will end up with a slightly worse system as a result.

              Also if you are a audiophile type or want to use your audio for creating audio then you can get better results with hardware that has no mixing. With software mixing you can do fancy things and use much higher quality algorithms then is possible in hardware. With software mixing you can actually turn it off, which is typically not the case with hardware.. So you can get lower latency and better audio quality.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by drag View Post
                As long as your distro isn't shit...
                That's a pretty open-ended out you left yourself there. NetworkMangager falls in to that category of software that I label "I'm smarter than you". It unilaterally makes decisions for you. (Though I haven't used Windows in 15 years, this was my main gripe about it. And it doesn't appear that things have changed much.) NetworkManager is a life-saver for portable equipment. But for a static environment, a static configuration is always going to do better than a busy-body daemon. I run Linux on a hundred or so cash registers. And believe me, you *do not* want to leave the networking up to the default NetworkManager in that scenario. On *any* distro.

                It makes it possible to have kick-ass audio for Linux. It makes it possible to manage audio I/O easily and configure your hardware in a sane manner. It makes it possible to migrate audio transparently from one device to another and combine multiple audio outputs easily. Also it enables network transparent audio to go along with remote applications and other such things.
                We were doing this long before PA. (Yes, network transparency can be nice. But ESD, simple as it is, works better.) And with much better stability. I spot test from time to time. Too often does sound just mysteriously stop, requiring PA to be restarted. On a variety of hardware. So it's not "a problem with my configuration" as people love to say. Never once have I missed any of PA's supposed features. Maybe a few people out there do need it. Let them yum or apt-get it.

                IMO, Lennart flits from project to project a bit much. I think he's looking to destroy our init system next with his cool-sounding, but fatally flawed socket-based fiasco.
                Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011, 11:22 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                  I think he's looking to destroy our init system next with his cool-sounding, but fatally flawed socket-based fiasco.
                  It's the distributors who choose which init system to use and they have quite unanimously choosen systemd. When you say that the socked-based system is flawed I guess you have solid data to back it up. Is it a secret or what might be the reason why distributors aren't concerned about these so called "flaws"?

                  Ubuntu like every other mainstream distribution try to provide a good solution for variety of different formfactors like desktops, laptops and netbooks that works out of the box... and you think these distribution shouldn't ship with NetworkManager? It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy. You might want to consider that the world doesn't spin around you and with most likely hood the distribution or the software that you use isn't developed with your exact desires in mind.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teho View Post
                    It's the distributors who choose which init system to use and they have quite unanimously choosen systemd.
                    What color is the sky on your planet?

                    When you say that the socked-based (sic) system is flawed I guess you have solid data to back it up.
                    Race conditions and deadlock. The Upstart devs experimented with this admittedly attractive idea. But it turned out to be something of a bug minefield. I'm not going to do the research for you. But it shouldn't be too hard for you to investigate.

                    Ubuntu like every other mainstream distribution try to provide a good solution for variety of different formfactors like desktops, laptops and netbooks that works out of the box... and you think these distribution shouldn't ship with NetworkManager?
                    Read what I said. I don't think that most distributions should ship with PulseAudio. Most should probably ship with NetworkManager. But many people are better off removing NetworkManager. Certainly, any machine in a static environment, for which reliable network connectivity is important, should not have NetworkManager installed. Note that simply setting up the interface statically is not enough. NetworkManager still interferes. Turning NetworkManager off in the init system doesn't necessarily work. (Probably a distro bug.) Removing NetworkManager is the sure-fire cure. Do consider that the network connectivity of the ~100 cash registers or so that I administer is mission critical. But desktop users also benefit from reliable network connectivity. It's just that NetworkManager's flaws are more apparent to me. When connectivity fails, I get emergency calls.

                    (What are your usage credentials, BTW?)

                    It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy.
                    I'll let you know if ever there is a day that PulseAudio saves me more grief than it causes.

                    You might want to consider that the world doesn't spin around you... blah blah blah
                    I'm simply presenting a pragmatic view based upon my experience deploying Linux on business desktops. Neither NetworkManager or PulseAudio are likely to kill anyone. (Fingers crossed.) And if you like them, you are certainly free to use them. ;-)
                    Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011, 02:12 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                      What color is the sky on your planet?
                      Are you saying that systemd isn't going to be the dominant inti system or what's your point? At least openSUSE, Fedora, Mageia and Mandriva have adopted it already and MeeGo/Tizen/Mer and many other are planning to. That pretty much means that SEL, RHLE, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Unbreakable Linux etc. are going to use it in the future. I'd be suprised if Ubuntu wouldn't adobt it sooner or later.


                      Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                      But it shouldn't be too hard for you to investigate.
                      I'm no expert, my point was that if there's major problems with systemd then professional distributions wouldn't adopt it like they have.


                      Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                      Do consider that the network connectivity of the ~100 cash registers or so that I administer is mission critical.
                      Sounds like environment where one would use tailored system in any case. If NetworkManager isn't needed or it causes problems in such scenario of cource one should remove it. However for absolute majority NetworkManager causes no more harm in static environment that few megabytes of memory waste.

                      Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                      I'll let you know if ever there is a day that PulseAudio saves me more grief than it causes.
                      That's the reason it's shipped with just about every distribution by default. Even thought there are some hardware which have poor driver support that leads to problems with pulseaudio, it's worth it.

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                      • #12
                        It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy.
                        I have yet to find a laptop/desktop where pulse audio works with a standard plug in microphone (my friend's Linux computers and mine. We were trying to get voice chat to work). It's sad really. It supports all these not commonly used features but doesn't work out of the box with a basic $5 microphone. (I did get it to work ... eventually.) :-( And before you ask, this has been an issue on many different versions of Ubuntu and Mint including the current version of Ubuntu.

                        Network manager is ok. I wish it had the option to connect to the strongest of the routers on your list, not the one first alphabetically. (Annoying when it tries to connect to a wifi spot when it has only 1 bar when another spot, that I have on it's connect list has 5 bars.)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ua=42 View Post
                          I have yet to find a laptop/desktop where pulse audio works with a standard plug in microphone (my friend's Linux computers and mine. We were trying to get voice chat to work). It's sad really. It supports all these not commonly used features but doesn't work out of the box with a basic $5 microphone. (I did get it to work ... eventually.) :-( And before you ask, this has been an issue on many different versions of Ubuntu and Mint including the current version of Ubuntu.

                          Network manager is ok. I wish it had the option to connect to the strongest of the routers on your list, not the one first alphabetically. (Annoying when it tries to connect to a wifi spot when it has only 1 bar when another spot, that I have on it's connect list has 5 bars.)
                          While NM's getting better still such annoyances still remain. Ideally it should offer to connect to the strongest router signal in your list but it doesn't, so that should be put in a bug report possibly. I been using Wicd for my laptop's network manager as it is light and gets out of the way. As for PA it's total crap that is very very hard to remove once installed as it goes deep into the audio stack.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Teho View Post
                            Are you saying that systemd isn't going to be the dominant inti system or what's your point?
                            Let's just say that the majority of Linux users are not going to be using systemd.

                            I'd be suprised if Ubuntu wouldn't adobt it sooner or later.
                            Doubtful. Upstart is mature, and has benefited from years of experience in the field. It has the capability of using sockets. But is generally configured not to because of the problems. Perhaps systemd has a facility for bypassing the socket method.

                            I'm no expert, my point was that if there's major problems with systemd then professional distributions wouldn't adopt it like they have.
                            Because in the entire history of Linux, no distro has never fallen flat on its face, Systemd reminds me a lot of devfs.

                            Sounds like environment where one would use tailored system in any case.
                            It is. But specifically, the matter of network stability in a static environment overlaps that of desktop users. It's not quite as critical for desktop users, They don't have a long line of retail customers scuffing around and threatening to walk out of the store. But they still benefit from a stable connection that doesn't suddenly decide to try to switch to a wireless network when a switch loses power, momentarily.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                              Let's just say that the majority of Linux users are not going to be using systemd.
                              And where do you get this? Distributions have to make a choise, stick with old, slow and ineffective init system or switch to something new and better. There is not much more to choose from except Upstart and systemd and when systemd wins hands down on everything except "maturity" the choise is quite obvious. systemd already works well on many systems which have not yet adopted it as default like Debian, Gentoo, Arch Linux and Chakra and with those that have like Fedora, openSUSE and Mandriva. With all likely hood it will also conquer the mobile space as it can provide better startup times and it was already considered before to replace Upstart on MeeGo.

                              Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                              Doubtful. Upstart is mature, and has benefited from years of experience in the field.
                              It might be more mature but it isn't as actively developed as systemd and doesn't do even a fraction what systemd is capable of. Developing a competing init system alone when a superior system is avaible sounds like waste of resources... and nothing like Canonical.

                              Originally posted by sbergman27 View Post
                              But they still benefit from a stable connection that doesn't suddenly decide to try to switch to a wireless network when a switch loses power, momentarily.
                              Disabling wireless connection is extremely easy and it does not connect automatically if one hasn't configured the network before and even if it did it would still automatically connect to the wired network right after it went back on... I find this extremely convenient behavior and it's configurable so I find it hard to see the downside.

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